It’s a fantastic movie! Sounds like a great night! You know what movie I’ve seen no fewer than a million times? Fight Club. Glad I got that out of my system before I met him. ;)
That was a great documentary. Thank you. Now I know why just I just bail on a what I thought was an important idea on my show. I hear myself in real time and just press the “stop record” button and leave my own recording.
I studied film originally in college, and Walter Murch's book blew me away. Wrote multiple papers on it and I've had the same copy on my bookshelf for... oh my god a decade now.
Anyways, I totally think about it everytime I'm handling a scene transition (love taking inspiration from a good match-cut). I'll have to re-read it now!
This also haunts me: A hypnotist specifically says, "Follow the moving object with your eyes." If a person turns his/her /neck head it's almost impossible to induce them into a trace. Thus head turning might equate with a pan shot, making it less likely the viewer will lapse into the fictive dream.
That's really interesting to think about! Another issue might be the typical languid speed that a pan shot has—for instance, people tend to more or less process whip pans as if it were a regular edit just with added intensity. Maybe it's the fact that the blurry motion allows viewer’s eyes to reframe the scene as it would a J or L cut.
I haven't read anything like that before (Though I think some horror that tries to emulate found footage uses some of the lingo like that—such as Michael Wehunt's “October Film Haunt”). I'd love to check it out if you have a title to recommend! 😊
Welp, one more thing on my watch list for when I get back home. I am so beyond excited (and a little terrified) to be able to go to Slush Pile tomorrow since I’m here on my honeymoon through the PNW. If I suck I just hope it’s productive, haha.
Movie-watching will never be the same, having read the section about blinking in unison and prey animals. Thanks for giving me something new to obsess over…
The concept of the reader being the egg is interesting. I sometimes feel that burned language can be so unexpected that it jars the reader and makes them conscious of the odd word choice, taking them out of the story, even momentarily. That won’t stop me from doing it, but I’m sure there’s a balance to strike between burning language and not waking the reader. Maybe it’s dropping the egg, then snatching it safely between two delicate hands moments before impact on the sidewalk.
And Im the one who sent Blink. It was very helpful in understanding when/where to cut.
Will definitely watch this doc.
This story Ive been working on for 2.5 years is all time jumps. Short flashbacks and forwards within chapters. The story Starts near the end. Then goes to the beginning. Then we go to halfway through the story. Back to the beginning for a boring character revealing chapter. Yadda yadda.
This stuff is difficult to figure out and use effectively and not overcomplicate.
Sometimes writer's block feels like being asked the question "why should there be these words here instead of none at all?" It may be hard to cut, cut, cut to the essence of the story, but I find it's also hard to capture any of that essence in the first place!
"And I’d rather you bought a copy of the Walter Murch book or paid to watch The Cinema Within, than pay for me to rehash such good information from both. Go to the source!" This made me laugh because I feel like you're my writing sponsor doing your 12th step work, and sponsors repeat the same things over and over, most of which they get from the literature, hoping it will finally stick. I was just reviewing a couple sections from your 2005-2007 Craft Essays. I know that material's all in Consider This, but I've a soft spot for your online craft essays since that's where I first heard your lessons. When I review what I've learned from you, I'm always astonished at how long I've been hearing it and that I haven't perfected any of it by now. But I guess it's a process. I wish I learned better and faster, but I don't. I'm just glad you're willing to keep repeating yourself and pointing us toward the knowledge. And hosting places for community/inspiration/feedback! That really helps. Thank you. See you tonight.
There seems to be somewhat of an unspoken understanding in translating certain prose styles/conventions to film and vise versa. The most apparent one, I think, being that stream of consciousness translates from prose to film as montage.
You know, I think a difference in scene transition between film and prose is that the former can often be expected to be more-or-less overt, while the latter is meant to be more covert — I.e. the transition in prose is meant to feel a lot more organic/natural
Interesting film (blink) - and now I am very attuned to my eyes blinking. (blink) Blinks are film cuts or punctuation as in a period, comma, dash (blink). They separate a thought or clause and show understanding of what's being said or shown. (blink) Very cool, I like that. (blink). I can see how it might apply to writing (blink).
i’m a sucker for films that can pull off long, dramatic scenes with no cuts or camera movement at all; now that i think about it, it seems as if i don’t blink during them, even when they’re ten or twelve minutes or more. then again, it could be my ocd.
There’s also a Boxer in both stories to go further with the horse correlation.
Where's the boxer in Animal house?
Doh! My error. Boxer FC not AH.
The documentary sounds super interesting. Thanks for the recommendation!
"Seccades" first entered into popular awareness in the film 'Looker' -- the big info dump sequence -- in 1981.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tiDwnwZjlg
Oh my god. I’ve put Animal house on the back burner for so long it’s time now. Tbh, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. It’s a sin I know.
I feel you about divorce court. If I like a movie or show I’ll watch it several times causing eric to go to bed early.
Yeah, well, Mike's made me sit through 'Kill Bill' no fewer than a million times.
It’s a fantastic movie! Sounds like a great night! You know what movie I’ve seen no fewer than a million times? Fight Club. Glad I got that out of my system before I met him. ;)
Thank you! Now I have something else to watch besides reruns about North Korea.
This is spooky good.
That was a great documentary. Thank you. Now I know why just I just bail on a what I thought was an important idea on my show. I hear myself in real time and just press the “stop record” button and leave my own recording.
I studied film originally in college, and Walter Murch's book blew me away. Wrote multiple papers on it and I've had the same copy on my bookshelf for... oh my god a decade now.
Anyways, I totally think about it everytime I'm handling a scene transition (love taking inspiration from a good match-cut). I'll have to re-read it now!
This also haunts me: A hypnotist specifically says, "Follow the moving object with your eyes." If a person turns his/her /neck head it's almost impossible to induce them into a trace. Thus head turning might equate with a pan shot, making it less likely the viewer will lapse into the fictive dream.
That's really interesting to think about! Another issue might be the typical languid speed that a pan shot has—for instance, people tend to more or less process whip pans as if it were a regular edit just with added intensity. Maybe it's the fact that the blurry motion allows viewer’s eyes to reframe the scene as it would a J or L cut.
Doesn't Andrew use "whip-pan" as a transition phrase in his fiction?
I haven't read anything like that before (Though I think some horror that tries to emulate found footage uses some of the lingo like that—such as Michael Wehunt's “October Film Haunt”). I'd love to check it out if you have a title to recommend! 😊
This is good stuff. I got some more techniques to practice. Thanks Chuck.
Welp, one more thing on my watch list for when I get back home. I am so beyond excited (and a little terrified) to be able to go to Slush Pile tomorrow since I’m here on my honeymoon through the PNW. If I suck I just hope it’s productive, haha.
Movie-watching will never be the same, having read the section about blinking in unison and prey animals. Thanks for giving me something new to obsess over…
The concept of the reader being the egg is interesting. I sometimes feel that burned language can be so unexpected that it jars the reader and makes them conscious of the odd word choice, taking them out of the story, even momentarily. That won’t stop me from doing it, but I’m sure there’s a balance to strike between burning language and not waking the reader. Maybe it’s dropping the egg, then snatching it safely between two delicate hands moments before impact on the sidewalk.
Consider that when we burn language it's in keeping with the character's voice. Done properly, I'd wager the burn should deepen the trance.
Orwell ghost wrote Animal House. Literally.
And Im the one who sent Blink. It was very helpful in understanding when/where to cut.
Will definitely watch this doc.
This story Ive been working on for 2.5 years is all time jumps. Short flashbacks and forwards within chapters. The story Starts near the end. Then goes to the beginning. Then we go to halfway through the story. Back to the beginning for a boring character revealing chapter. Yadda yadda.
This stuff is difficult to figure out and use effectively and not overcomplicate.
Bravo! And thank you again. Murch appears in the documentary, and the filmmakers also use an actor to represent the Murch of decades ago.
Happy to help.
Sometimes writer's block feels like being asked the question "why should there be these words here instead of none at all?" It may be hard to cut, cut, cut to the essence of the story, but I find it's also hard to capture any of that essence in the first place!
PS: Check out the editing/story framing in Harakiri. Its done very well. Watch for free at Archive.org
"And I’d rather you bought a copy of the Walter Murch book or paid to watch The Cinema Within, than pay for me to rehash such good information from both. Go to the source!" This made me laugh because I feel like you're my writing sponsor doing your 12th step work, and sponsors repeat the same things over and over, most of which they get from the literature, hoping it will finally stick. I was just reviewing a couple sections from your 2005-2007 Craft Essays. I know that material's all in Consider This, but I've a soft spot for your online craft essays since that's where I first heard your lessons. When I review what I've learned from you, I'm always astonished at how long I've been hearing it and that I haven't perfected any of it by now. But I guess it's a process. I wish I learned better and faster, but I don't. I'm just glad you're willing to keep repeating yourself and pointing us toward the knowledge. And hosting places for community/inspiration/feedback! That really helps. Thank you. See you tonight.
There seems to be somewhat of an unspoken understanding in translating certain prose styles/conventions to film and vise versa. The most apparent one, I think, being that stream of consciousness translates from prose to film as montage.
You know, I think a difference in scene transition between film and prose is that the former can often be expected to be more-or-less overt, while the latter is meant to be more covert — I.e. the transition in prose is meant to feel a lot more organic/natural
Interesting film (blink) - and now I am very attuned to my eyes blinking. (blink) Blinks are film cuts or punctuation as in a period, comma, dash (blink). They separate a thought or clause and show understanding of what's being said or shown. (blink) Very cool, I like that. (blink). I can see how it might apply to writing (blink).
i’m a sucker for films that can pull off long, dramatic scenes with no cuts or camera movement at all; now that i think about it, it seems as if i don’t blink during them, even when they’re ten or twelve minutes or more. then again, it could be my ocd.