Never give it a thought. If I can't fix it I forget it. Or I make a funny/sad story out of it. That story about mom's funeral became the coloring book story "Dad All Over" about the old father who kills himself as he becomes demented and fears insulting and hurting his family. A friend told me the awful advice about not wearing hoodies around table saws, and the story came together very fast. Gruesome as hell.
My father once told me he loved my sister more than me. I can’t remember why. All I remember are those words. Now he’s dead and it hardly seems to matter. For a long time I resented him but, honestly, those words took a lot of pressure off me. It was the moment I stopped living in my father’s shadow. Maybe that was the point. Either way, I try not to think about it.
Agreed. Time is the only real healer. That's my only hope when writing, that a story is so wild and outrageous that it siphons off emotion and allows the reader just a few hours distance from some actual tragedy.
Most writers would do anything for such "limited success." I had a chat with a book marketing coach (yes, these things exist) and the summary was to write as many books as possible as quickly as possible to sell more books. A bit disheartening if you don't crank out the fiction at a breakneck pace. What would you do if you were just started writing fiction today, Chuck?
Not sure I'd change much. I write because I love presenting work in workshop among friends. I might not have quit my job and walked away from the benefits. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I hear union jobs like that have nice pensions. Would you have been able to retire at 20 or 30 years? Just think of all the experiences you would have lost to stay on that line. Who knows what kind of scars or stories you would have gotten instead. We all make choices in our lives. Hindsight is something I try not to waste my time on.
I retired from the Navy after being a Hospital Corpsman for 20 years. It allows me the freedom to not have to worry about making any money writing. The sea stories that I lived through were a nice little bonus.
That's the wonderful undecidability of the issue. In 'Greener Pastures' I wanted to depict kids at that phase where you decide between that sure-thing secure career or the passion you secretly harbor. I'll always be haunted by how my mother's talent seemed to ebb and be lost by the time she could begin to develop it. And when I go to writers' conferences I meet so many older people who've waited until retirement in their 60s or 70s to begin writing. Some will succeed and write well, but most publishers want a stable of authors who will produce work over time. It's too expensive to launch a one-shot author, or a two-book author. The juice of the issue is how it can be argued either way. Make it an extreme case: Rosemary gets impregnated by the Devil. Then follow the story to a conclusion.
Does that mean at 43 that my chances of getting published are pretty low? I figured the publishing game was going to be difficult anyways. I just want to write for my own good, so it ultimately doesn't matter to me.
I think it would be great to be able to inspire or help someone else through the writing process. I will learn as much as I can from the community being built here to share with other creatives.
I hope your mom's friend got the medication she needs to be able to think before she talks. So sorry you had to hear that hurtful comment! My favourite line is when people tell me "I heard you play." (I'm a very amateur fiddler and like to find nooks with great acoustics, such as stairwells in a community centre). They are usually not looking hostile or put upon, but what do you say to that?
I can imagine the live improv version of Guts must have been at least as thrilling as hearing the original.
"Compared to what?" is a reply I like to use on intrusive, insensitive, obnoxious individuals who drop these types of comments. The question allows them to :reflect on their comment and apologize; or generously buys them time to clarify their ill-formed comment; or struggle to find the actual comparison to validate their argument—assuming they even have one.
"The Corn Exchange" building? What a perfect venue for "Guts." All that corn in the translucent intestine. Holy shit.
Nice! Fran Liebowitz (who I recall Mr. P. dropping her name around here once) stated in a recent interview a similar “In relation to?” response when confronted with an innocuous “How are things?” type of question. Seems good catch-all snappy-answer-to-stupid-remark thing to say, so thanks for the reminder and keep up the snarky work!
My German friends are incensed by the American innocuous response, "Good for you!" Germans seem to interpret it as the ultimate patronizing deflection.
this makes me think of the first time I interview you back in 2003… at some point you said “now I’d like to ask you a question… I’m reading a short story in this tour. every night people collapse. 33 people so far. have you heard something about it?”
“yeah, I’ve read something on the Internet, but thought it was just another urban legend.”
you laughed and looked so satisfied “nah, it’s all true… you should try…”
and when I handed you my copy of Lullaby to have it signed, you noticed a sentence about Fight Club on the cover. You crossed “Fight Club” out with a line and wrote “Guts!”.
On that same tour in Milan a man in the audience shouted me down. He worked in the calamari industry and said the joke comparing calamari to intestine wasn't funny. Hey, I love calamari so much I don't care where it comes from. Soon after, National Public Radio reported on an industry rumor that cheap calamari was actually sectioned pig bung. Related to my story? Who knows.
People's insensitivity never fails to astound and disappoint me.
Amazing postcard from Brighton. It's the events (life events too I mean) that are less than perfect, or erratic or whatever else, that always remain the most vivid in the memory. As a great quote once said "Everything is funnier in retrospect..." 😏
Some people are cruel. Some people trip over their own words. Your mother's friend may have been thinking that your mother was afraid she would express her fears or concerns and mashed that into the friend's silly ideas which came out as "what you're mother thought of you". Your student may have been thinking "limited" as compared to his view that you are the greatest author ever. These are the types of things I tell myself to get through the day.
It was just a wrong-headed comment in an awkward moment. I gave her mom's best piece of jewelry, a gold Celtic necklace. She and my mother were supposed to tour Ireland on a twenty-cities-in-twenty-days bus tour, but the cancer diagnosis scotched that. Frankly, the tour sounded more brutal than the cancer.
I mean, where does one start? The student? F#$k sakes. I would die a happy man with a Fight Club or Guts under my belt. That would enough, but there's lots more after that worth bragging about. You have to wonder if your mothers friend is being honest or projecting, assuming, or just a crazy old bat. Could be some missing context. Either way it's a kick to the balls.
Thank you! Recently I read a book that stated that people who succeeded in creativity while young tended to peak and spend their middle and later years defending their earlier work. They don't evolve to create much new. But people (artists, scientists) who create new work throughout life tend to be people in love with the constant experiment of change and risk. Coming from the throw-away world of journalism, I love passionate short-lived experiments in voice and structure, The charm of 'Fight Club' isn't the content, it's how those images are ordered and presented. Everything -- witness 'Prayer', the story from last week -- depends on structure and delivery. That makes even vile subject matter palatable.
Meanwhile, I'll look for the title about that book about creativity.
Everyone's probably got a moment where, under pressure, they've said something stupid. It probably haunts them at nights now. The sort of thing where, just as they're about to fall asleep, their brain will remind them of that time they made a tit of themselves and now they can't sleep for another hour at least. The time when words just came out wrong and then they realised they couldn't take them back. That they're out now and've been heard.
This happens to me all the time.
I always try to find the best possible interpretation, however far-fetched, because things aren't always said in malice.
Like maybe your mum's friend, she meant nothing more serious than an off-hand comment about something innocuous. Like a poorly chosen outfit or taste in music or pizza topping. Or that maybe your mum was really proud and didn't want to embarrass you by bringing it up. The thoughts could've been good or bad. I'd like to think that nobody would say something so intentionally hurtful at such a crappy time.
I once asked my mom, “How old were you when you started to look older?” This came out totally wrong (I was trying to ask about something stupid and vain that I can’t even articulate) and she was naturally miffed and the day was ruined. For the record, my mom is only like 18 years older than me and has always looked youthful enough to be my sister, but still… 😬
Hah! As a very small kid, I asked my grandmother how she got all those liver spots on her hands. I wanted spots like that! Be careful what you wish for.
Kids can immediately find your weak spots and have little regard for your feelings. You know bad things are coming when under the scrutiny of the appraising eye of a toddler.
When my mom was dying of cancer and I was in Ireland for her last 11 days, my stepdad said, "It's probably better your kids didn't see her at the end, Psy (his grandson) said, why does Grandma Cheryl look like a witch?"
I wanted to pose a question to the group. What criteria do you use to find a local writing group? Seattle is close enough to Portland to write in study hall on occasion. I was looking for something to hold me accountable on a more consistent basis.
Meetup seemed to have several active groups. I figure that will be a good enough start as any other. Any advice would be appreciated. I will let everyone know how it goes. This way there can be a public record of how many brony fan fiction groups I come across before finding a good one.
I find this challenging too. I've led a few online groups and I'm currently holding one in person but it's hard to get people to show up. Everyone wants to write a book, but not many people actually show up to write it. Maybe you could even find something with a Nanowrimo-focus since that is happening next month?
Jim, thanks for the information. I was not familiar with NaNoWriMo (crazy acronym) but I googled it. I think being 43 that I might be too old for that. I guess I could volunteer as a helper but lately alot of things have been cancelled or scaled back due to covid.
I joined a random meetup writing group in Seattle when I first moved to the area. I had a really good experience. I might have gotten lucky, but I would recommend trying.
Maybe this will help. To tailor a previous group I proposed we only write horror fiction for ten weeks. This would preclude memoir, and give us some guidance and permission to bring in experimental horror. It worked great and would still be going strong if not for Covid. We accepted short stories as well as portions of novels.
A funny side note is that I have been talking about all this writing and substack stuff with my ex-wife. She told me last night that she was also looking for writing groups on Meetup. I think it would be quite entertaining for the group if they got each of us on alternating weeks.
The typical way people get in contact with me is there is this old gothic style spotlight on top of Seattle city hall. If you can get the keys or permission from Council Member Sawant, then you can turn it on. Unfortunately the light is very dim since it is carbon neutral but on the darkest night you can sometimes make out the faint project of a snowflake on the clouds. Also email works.
At a family Christmas party, I ran into an old friend from high school, and my mother-in-law grabbed the girl’s shoulders and told me, “This is who I wanted my son to marry!” My friend said something sweet in response but it was definitely a lolwtf kind of moment.
The reading scene sounds like an epic moment that should have been in “Citizen Kane” at a jaunty camera angle shooting up at you both from the people’s view.
I’m on it. Again— thank you Chuck (waving hands in a big encompassing circle) for ALL OF THIS!! The past few weeks with you and everyone in the group has been sooo so great!
One of the things I love about your writing is how you are able to take something we see everyday— and once we have read about, let’s say stain glass windows, for this example—- all I can think about is “Greener Pastures,” now! Also— baby aspirin— I’m surprised I didn’t go deaf— I used to sneak and eat them along with Tums.
When I was 8 or 9 (or 10!), my dad took me to see our GP because I was sick. On his desk was a picture of a boy of similar age to me. "Who's that?" I asked. "That's my son." "Oh... He's ugly."
I don't know why I said it. It just came out. It still haunts me to this day (I'm 38).
Here's another one. Same again, 8 years old. Been round a mate's house after school for dinner. His mum's dropping me off on my doorstep, my mum's thanking his mum for having me, his mum's saying I was no trouble, bla bla bla, adult pleasantries.
Me, pushing through the front door, while they're still talking: "Mum, any sausages left, I'm starving."
I don't know which mother was the more embarrassed. I just remember it was painfully awkward.
Do you lie awake at night wondering what your mother really thought of you? That would bug the shit out of me.
Better not to know. Mothers are great at bringing you down and crushing your spirit.
Never give it a thought. If I can't fix it I forget it. Or I make a funny/sad story out of it. That story about mom's funeral became the coloring book story "Dad All Over" about the old father who kills himself as he becomes demented and fears insulting and hurting his family. A friend told me the awful advice about not wearing hoodies around table saws, and the story came together very fast. Gruesome as hell.
My father once told me he loved my sister more than me. I can’t remember why. All I remember are those words. Now he’s dead and it hardly seems to matter. For a long time I resented him but, honestly, those words took a lot of pressure off me. It was the moment I stopped living in my father’s shadow. Maybe that was the point. Either way, I try not to think about it.
Agreed. Time is the only real healer. That's my only hope when writing, that a story is so wild and outrageous that it siphons off emotion and allows the reader just a few hours distance from some actual tragedy.
some people like to throw grenades and look away.. why not throw a grenade at someone you look up to?
Most writers would do anything for such "limited success." I had a chat with a book marketing coach (yes, these things exist) and the summary was to write as many books as possible as quickly as possible to sell more books. A bit disheartening if you don't crank out the fiction at a breakneck pace. What would you do if you were just started writing fiction today, Chuck?
You're not alone! Being slow and being a minimalist is a challenge for sure!
Not sure I'd change much. I write because I love presenting work in workshop among friends. I might not have quit my job and walked away from the benefits. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I hear union jobs like that have nice pensions. Would you have been able to retire at 20 or 30 years? Just think of all the experiences you would have lost to stay on that line. Who knows what kind of scars or stories you would have gotten instead. We all make choices in our lives. Hindsight is something I try not to waste my time on.
I retired from the Navy after being a Hospital Corpsman for 20 years. It allows me the freedom to not have to worry about making any money writing. The sea stories that I lived through were a nice little bonus.
That's the wonderful undecidability of the issue. In 'Greener Pastures' I wanted to depict kids at that phase where you decide between that sure-thing secure career or the passion you secretly harbor. I'll always be haunted by how my mother's talent seemed to ebb and be lost by the time she could begin to develop it. And when I go to writers' conferences I meet so many older people who've waited until retirement in their 60s or 70s to begin writing. Some will succeed and write well, but most publishers want a stable of authors who will produce work over time. It's too expensive to launch a one-shot author, or a two-book author. The juice of the issue is how it can be argued either way. Make it an extreme case: Rosemary gets impregnated by the Devil. Then follow the story to a conclusion.
Does that mean at 43 that my chances of getting published are pretty low? I figured the publishing game was going to be difficult anyways. I just want to write for my own good, so it ultimately doesn't matter to me.
I think it would be great to be able to inspire or help someone else through the writing process. I will learn as much as I can from the community being built here to share with other creatives.
I hope your mom's friend got the medication she needs to be able to think before she talks. So sorry you had to hear that hurtful comment! My favourite line is when people tell me "I heard you play." (I'm a very amateur fiddler and like to find nooks with great acoustics, such as stairwells in a community centre). They are usually not looking hostile or put upon, but what do you say to that?
I can imagine the live improv version of Guts must have been at least as thrilling as hearing the original.
"Compared to what?" is a reply I like to use on intrusive, insensitive, obnoxious individuals who drop these types of comments. The question allows them to :reflect on their comment and apologize; or generously buys them time to clarify their ill-formed comment; or struggle to find the actual comparison to validate their argument—assuming they even have one.
"The Corn Exchange" building? What a perfect venue for "Guts." All that corn in the translucent intestine. Holy shit.
Nice! Fran Liebowitz (who I recall Mr. P. dropping her name around here once) stated in a recent interview a similar “In relation to?” response when confronted with an innocuous “How are things?” type of question. Seems good catch-all snappy-answer-to-stupid-remark thing to say, so thanks for the reminder and keep up the snarky work!
My German friends are incensed by the American innocuous response, "Good for you!" Germans seem to interpret it as the ultimate patronizing deflection.
"How does it feel to have such limited success?"
"Like Harper Lee."
We're all guilty of saying/doing dumb stuff. (thinks. raises hand. thinks. raises hand ad infinitum)
Perfectly said
this makes me think of the first time I interview you back in 2003… at some point you said “now I’d like to ask you a question… I’m reading a short story in this tour. every night people collapse. 33 people so far. have you heard something about it?”
“yeah, I’ve read something on the Internet, but thought it was just another urban legend.”
you laughed and looked so satisfied “nah, it’s all true… you should try…”
and when I handed you my copy of Lullaby to have it signed, you noticed a sentence about Fight Club on the cover. You crossed “Fight Club” out with a line and wrote “Guts!”.
You really seemed so very proud of Guts.
Yes, booksellers tell me that when John Irving reads the kitchen table abortion scene members of the audience drop like flies.
On that same tour in Milan a man in the audience shouted me down. He worked in the calamari industry and said the joke comparing calamari to intestine wasn't funny. Hey, I love calamari so much I don't care where it comes from. Soon after, National Public Radio reported on an industry rumor that cheap calamari was actually sectioned pig bung. Related to my story? Who knows.
Ha! Chuck’s Pig Bung Calamari… maaan, sounds damn yummy!
I will eat anything if it's breaded and deep fried.
haha I second your emotion, my man. we have this old saying here in Italy… “even a slipper is good, if it’s fried”
Can I use that? (asking out of courtesy, I'm using it no matter what!)
haha!
well, Andy Warhol used Marilyn Monroe and Mao Zedong… how can I stop Chuck Palahniuk from using an old Italian saying?
People's insensitivity never fails to astound and disappoint me.
Amazing postcard from Brighton. It's the events (life events too I mean) that are less than perfect, or erratic or whatever else, that always remain the most vivid in the memory. As a great quote once said "Everything is funnier in retrospect..." 😏
Some people are cruel. Some people trip over their own words. Your mother's friend may have been thinking that your mother was afraid she would express her fears or concerns and mashed that into the friend's silly ideas which came out as "what you're mother thought of you". Your student may have been thinking "limited" as compared to his view that you are the greatest author ever. These are the types of things I tell myself to get through the day.
My heart broke reading the comment from your mother’s friend.
It was just a wrong-headed comment in an awkward moment. I gave her mom's best piece of jewelry, a gold Celtic necklace. She and my mother were supposed to tour Ireland on a twenty-cities-in-twenty-days bus tour, but the cancer diagnosis scotched that. Frankly, the tour sounded more brutal than the cancer.
I mean, where does one start? The student? F#$k sakes. I would die a happy man with a Fight Club or Guts under my belt. That would enough, but there's lots more after that worth bragging about. You have to wonder if your mothers friend is being honest or projecting, assuming, or just a crazy old bat. Could be some missing context. Either way it's a kick to the balls.
This is a great post.
Thank you! Recently I read a book that stated that people who succeeded in creativity while young tended to peak and spend their middle and later years defending their earlier work. They don't evolve to create much new. But people (artists, scientists) who create new work throughout life tend to be people in love with the constant experiment of change and risk. Coming from the throw-away world of journalism, I love passionate short-lived experiments in voice and structure, The charm of 'Fight Club' isn't the content, it's how those images are ordered and presented. Everything -- witness 'Prayer', the story from last week -- depends on structure and delivery. That makes even vile subject matter palatable.
Meanwhile, I'll look for the title about that book about creativity.
Everyone's probably got a moment where, under pressure, they've said something stupid. It probably haunts them at nights now. The sort of thing where, just as they're about to fall asleep, their brain will remind them of that time they made a tit of themselves and now they can't sleep for another hour at least. The time when words just came out wrong and then they realised they couldn't take them back. That they're out now and've been heard.
This happens to me all the time.
I always try to find the best possible interpretation, however far-fetched, because things aren't always said in malice.
Like maybe your mum's friend, she meant nothing more serious than an off-hand comment about something innocuous. Like a poorly chosen outfit or taste in music or pizza topping. Or that maybe your mum was really proud and didn't want to embarrass you by bringing it up. The thoughts could've been good or bad. I'd like to think that nobody would say something so intentionally hurtful at such a crappy time.
I once asked my mom, “How old were you when you started to look older?” This came out totally wrong (I was trying to ask about something stupid and vain that I can’t even articulate) and she was naturally miffed and the day was ruined. For the record, my mom is only like 18 years older than me and has always looked youthful enough to be my sister, but still… 😬
Hah! As a very small kid, I asked my grandmother how she got all those liver spots on her hands. I wanted spots like that! Be careful what you wish for.
Kids can immediately find your weak spots and have little regard for your feelings. You know bad things are coming when under the scrutiny of the appraising eye of a toddler.
With kids I don't sense malice. They just have a blunt way of phrasing things.
Haha, no but their curiosity will see through your insecurities.
"Daddy?"
"Yes?"
And you just watch their mouth open as their eyes fixate on a spot or a hair that you're trying so hard to hide. You know there's no hiding anything.
I asked my grandmother the same about her varicose veins.
When my mom was dying of cancer and I was in Ireland for her last 11 days, my stepdad said, "It's probably better your kids didn't see her at the end, Psy (his grandson) said, why does Grandma Cheryl look like a witch?"
I wanted to pose a question to the group. What criteria do you use to find a local writing group? Seattle is close enough to Portland to write in study hall on occasion. I was looking for something to hold me accountable on a more consistent basis.
Meetup seemed to have several active groups. I figure that will be a good enough start as any other. Any advice would be appreciated. I will let everyone know how it goes. This way there can be a public record of how many brony fan fiction groups I come across before finding a good one.
I find this challenging too. I've led a few online groups and I'm currently holding one in person but it's hard to get people to show up. Everyone wants to write a book, but not many people actually show up to write it. Maybe you could even find something with a Nanowrimo-focus since that is happening next month?
Jim, thanks for the information. I was not familiar with NaNoWriMo (crazy acronym) but I googled it. I think being 43 that I might be too old for that. I guess I could volunteer as a helper but lately alot of things have been cancelled or scaled back due to covid.
I joined a random meetup writing group in Seattle when I first moved to the area. I had a really good experience. I might have gotten lucky, but I would recommend trying.
Thank you Enigmalogist, I will try. I just have to overcome my introvert tendencies and put myself out there.
I think you just described the writing process.
I wish I could use Meetup better. All the writing groups in the DC/Maryland area seem to be inspirational or self-help in nature.
I also live in the area. Would you like to meet up and discuss craft sometime?
Maybe this will help. To tailor a previous group I proposed we only write horror fiction for ten weeks. This would preclude memoir, and give us some guidance and permission to bring in experimental horror. It worked great and would still be going strong if not for Covid. We accepted short stories as well as portions of novels.
My story was called "Prank." Camping as a setting is such a horror trope.
I live nearby and would be willing to meet up. Thoughts?
I would be willing to meet up.
A funny side note is that I have been talking about all this writing and substack stuff with my ex-wife. She told me last night that she was also looking for writing groups on Meetup. I think it would be quite entertaining for the group if they got each of us on alternating weeks.
The typical way people get in contact with me is there is this old gothic style spotlight on top of Seattle city hall. If you can get the keys or permission from Council Member Sawant, then you can turn it on. Unfortunately the light is very dim since it is carbon neutral but on the darkest night you can sometimes make out the faint project of a snowflake on the clouds. Also email works.
*projection, faint projection of a snowflake
At a family Christmas party, I ran into an old friend from high school, and my mother-in-law grabbed the girl’s shoulders and told me, “This is who I wanted my son to marry!” My friend said something sweet in response but it was definitely a lolwtf kind of moment.
Awful 🙁.
Ha, right?!
Yikes!
The reading scene sounds like an epic moment that should have been in “Citizen Kane” at a jaunty camera angle shooting up at you both from the people’s view.
You have me re-watching “Rosemary’s Baby.” 🤭😳
Also went back to revisit, John Carpenter’s “Christine.” Damn— still just as good. A demon car— 🤯.
Have you seen 'The Car' starring James Brolin? His finest role!
I’m on it. Again— thank you Chuck (waving hands in a big encompassing circle) for ALL OF THIS!! The past few weeks with you and everyone in the group has been sooo so great!
One of the things I love about your writing is how you are able to take something we see everyday— and once we have read about, let’s say stain glass windows, for this example—- all I can think about is “Greener Pastures,” now! Also— baby aspirin— I’m surprised I didn’t go deaf— I used to sneak and eat them along with Tums.
I LOVE YOUR WRITING!!
…okay, I’m done. 😶
Were you ears burning last night? Tiffany was praising you to the workshop.
When I was 8 or 9 (or 10!), my dad took me to see our GP because I was sick. On his desk was a picture of a boy of similar age to me. "Who's that?" I asked. "That's my son." "Oh... He's ugly."
I don't know why I said it. It just came out. It still haunts me to this day (I'm 38).
This story also took place in Brighton, by the way.
I can relate so much to this. It's like at some point your brain says, "Don't say it, don't you dare say it, it's a stupid thing to say."
You do anyway.
So your brain, it just takes its ball and goes home. It says, "Fine, see you in about thirty years at about 2 am. ENJOY THE INSOMNIA SUCKER."
Cue muffled screaming into the darkness.
Matt knows.
Here's another one. Same again, 8 years old. Been round a mate's house after school for dinner. His mum's dropping me off on my doorstep, my mum's thanking his mum for having me, his mum's saying I was no trouble, bla bla bla, adult pleasantries.
Me, pushing through the front door, while they're still talking: "Mum, any sausages left, I'm starving."
I don't know which mother was the more embarrassed. I just remember it was painfully awkward.
My vicarious embarrassment centres have imploded and my toes cannot curl any further. I understand your pain completely.