Since I heard you talking about it, I believe on a podcast somewhere, I’ve really noticed the power of repetition in story. Either immediately repeating a line or dashing in and out with the same word or phrase as the story rolls.
This technique deserves a long post of its own. But saying something twice, and rephrasing it the second time is a sure-fire way to nail it in the reader's mind. Maybe it's because I come from a large family, but if something's said only once I seldom catch it.
Yes, agreed. It’s similar to something in meditation. There’s the act of “breaking the spell” of the story your mind is telling itself and briefly revealing truth. Or in my case, it always seems like a sort of cutting in two of the world around me, revealing that it was only two-dimensional all along. Something you can tear in half. Repetition in story feels like that to me.
Interesting. I wonder how that relates to pauses in music, where the listener feels tension until the next note occurs.
I've always tried to mimic the unconventional breaks in how radio presenters such as Paul Harvey and Dr. Laura Schlessinger speak. They break their sentences in strange places, and the silence creates a beat of tension. You listen more closely then, perhaps from the fear that you've lost the radio signal. These pauses also seem to break information into bite-sized chunks we can retain.
Exactly! I’ve always said the greatest commercial would be one that’s dead silent. Everyone in the room would stop what they’re doing and turn to look at the screen.
https://youtu.be/_oVz0xzBGlc -- If you listen to all of it and then come back here and praise the book before Chuck reads your comment you might still be alive come the end of the week.
Well, the story, “Knock, Knock” you wrote that appeared in Playboy…one of the key jokes in it, which the man tells his father—- that’s a perfect example. https://youtu.be/rquq0jALQIs
Also, in the movie, “Stand By Me,” the character that is the writer of the group, he tells a story where it has a refrain repetition as well… but one of his friends hates the ending and the others have questions which legitimately, might make the young writer a better story teller. I just watched it recently and man— it has a whole different meaning watching it as an adult as compared to me at 13. Since the film takes place in Portland, Oregon— made me think of a young Chuck Palahniuk and his beginnings. I’m also a Stephen King fan… here’s the story. https://youtu.be/TG2gjL-KUqw
Yes, the compelling refrain that eventually resolves. BTW, I was a college kid reporter haunting the shooting locations during 'Stand By Me' trying to get a photo for a newspaper. It was in Cottage Grove, Oregon. Rob Reiner yelled at me.
My parents’ wedding anniversary was 3 days ago and I didn’t wish them congratulations until my mom texted to remind me at 10:00pm. Now this great post tempts me to wish them a Happy Gatsby Day this morning, and send Gatsby quotes throughout the day.
Full disclosure. 'Gatsby' is such a good teaching tool that when it fell into public domain this year I began going to charity shops and buying up used copies for my students, and to put into gift boxes.
“ Chuck , you remind me of a Rose , of an absolute Rose. Doesn’t Chuck remind you of a Rose” ?
I’m looking for patterns As an acting student in Australia ,Among a lot of insights you’ve shared . allowing repetition occurs ,you won’t be having to pay too much attention , just like poetry and song lyrics you know it will happen again so you better enjoy it:)
Exactly. Also consider the "prologues" used in 19th century fiction. "In this chapter David Copperfield journeys to..." They're similar to the thumbnails used on the front of 'Citizen Kane' and 'Titanic' that synopsis the plot before we see it dramatized.
I remember every chapter from Cormac McCarthy's blood meridian start with a few lines explaining what will happen in the chapter. At first it sort of bugged me but It somehow works.
Ah, Nick, why is it often 'The Great Gatsby' and not ‘Tender is the Night’? Did you know, Nick, that Gatsby is possibly Fitzgerald’s most popular work because they included it with the release of ‘The Last Tycoon’ to make up for page count? That’s right -- despite Tender being regarded as, even by Fitzgerald’s own admission, his best work, Gatsby is maybe the best known and loved due to what amounts to the book being the right page length to add on to Tycoon. Crazy, huh? Oh, why are you frowning, Nick? Because I’m not making any sense? Well, see, Nick, the thing is we’re not real. We’re all fictional creations, every one of our very thoughts and actions are dictated by what we might consider to be God, but is in all actuality a mortal man slaving away over paper with pencil. How do I know this? I play the pretty little fool, Nick, but my existence is one infinitely more tragic. I’m cursed with knowing what I am -- which isn’t really anything more than ink on a page. What are we, Nick? We’re nothing; abstractions at the most. But then again, what is human consciousness if nothing more than an abstraction? Oh, hang on a second -- I really must get these curtains open; It’s such a nice summer’s day!
First, much of the Gatsby charm comes from its brevity. Second, it's easy to dissect. Third, it's romantic fatalism which only gets more interesting as people age and recognize their own limitations and delusions.
I agree with all three and hope you don’t mind me throwing in a fourth -- it’s one of the most rhythmically eloquent books written in the English language. Thing seriously reads like a composed piece of music.
I don’t know about you guys but I think my post-modernist magnum opus about how Daisy is actually a self aware character and how she does things in Gatsby intentionally -- such as the hit and run -- knowing all the while what the consequences will be is going to rock the literary world and be a bestselling classic.
One thing about Gatsby that’s stuck in my mind because of you, Chuck, is the ‘best page break’ in all of fiction. The part of the book when it’s at its most tragic and how it’s pared with the most comforting. Can you cut to the chase and do a whole lecture series on the book, por favor?
In my younger, more vulnerable years, Chuck gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my head ever since. “Don't stick nothing up your penis." He didn't say much more after that. He didn't need to.
Someday, I got to rewatch the first two seasons. I feel it is a very re-watchable show - the first time viewing, it’s all shock and awe; the next time viewing, you notice everything you missed the first time because you were so shocked and awed.
I just got done watching the episode 3. Did you notice that gesture from Starlight at the end of the episode? That was the second time. Would Chuck call that a black-out gesture? It was a pretty strong thing to end on.
As I mentioned it before it could have been the Millionaire and I and 20th wedding anniversary but it is very much the 10th of saving Michaels life for me.
I’ve done checked out the audiobook of Gatsby to listen to while I pack the car for vacation. Chuck has an outsized influence on my entertainment choices.
I'm odd out here. I never dug Gatsby the way others do. That's not to say it's unworthy of praise, just not mine. I suppose I'm partial to modern contemporary, upmarket fiction. To those who celebrate, please do so and forget my Debbie-Downer comment.
*Erase last three seconds of memory starting here*
This post caught my attention when Chuck mentioned the repeating line. It's naive of me to think it hasn't been done by anyone but Paulie Walnuts. Yet here we are. David Chase, turns out you weren't the first to stylize it.
Granted, it's far from my favorite book, but it's an excellent teaching tool. And it's easy to get, and translated well. I'd hate to make you read 800 pages to study achieving just one effect.
I was being a smartass about the repeating line thing. I've seen you do it maybe half a dozen times. David Sedaris used it often. Even Fran Lebowitz did in her "Reader" MS. Not sure if she used the style in other works. Andy Warhol used it, but his shit was annoying. You'll find lines is Ellis' American Psycho that sound so similar they feel like repeating lines with no repeating lines. Honestly, that book got so redundant, the first 200 put me to sleep. I know what he was going for and it was effective, just tedious. But the repeating line you were talking about was used sparingly. It forces instant recall. That always works for me. I dig it.
Oh, shit! You should've led with Hempel. That woman has wild skills. I'm seriously delighted you mentioned The Harvest. That story did what Fight Club did; it made me read fast, and cathartic. It's brevity is its power. Do you remember how Mitch Hedberg would make a joke and get a mild reaction, so he'd bookend it with, "And yes, I know that joke was dumb." The Harvest reminded me of him; the exaggerations, the omissions and the subsequent clarity. If you start lecturing metafiction, this is a prime homework assignment for your peeps. It's in my Top 5 reads.
Thanks for reminding us of the day so WE won’t miss it :-)
Since I heard you talking about it, I believe on a podcast somewhere, I’ve really noticed the power of repetition in story. Either immediately repeating a line or dashing in and out with the same word or phrase as the story rolls.
This technique deserves a long post of its own. But saying something twice, and rephrasing it the second time is a sure-fire way to nail it in the reader's mind. Maybe it's because I come from a large family, but if something's said only once I seldom catch it.
Yes, agreed. It’s similar to something in meditation. There’s the act of “breaking the spell” of the story your mind is telling itself and briefly revealing truth. Or in my case, it always seems like a sort of cutting in two of the world around me, revealing that it was only two-dimensional all along. Something you can tear in half. Repetition in story feels like that to me.
Interesting. I wonder how that relates to pauses in music, where the listener feels tension until the next note occurs.
I've always tried to mimic the unconventional breaks in how radio presenters such as Paul Harvey and Dr. Laura Schlessinger speak. They break their sentences in strange places, and the silence creates a beat of tension. You listen more closely then, perhaps from the fear that you've lost the radio signal. These pauses also seem to break information into bite-sized chunks we can retain.
Exactly! I’ve always said the greatest commercial would be one that’s dead silent. Everyone in the room would stop what they’re doing and turn to look at the screen.
The ultimate form of this might be John Cage's silence work.
The book “Silence: Lectures and Writings”? Or am I looking at something else
It also echoes biblical poetry.
“Lord, hear my prayer,
Hearken to my pleas.”
Absolutely!
You've used it effectively, although broken up throughout your stories.
"Are you there Satan? It's me, Madison."
https://youtu.be/xP8aIANSm6k
1:02:30
Aaaaah!! Good link post!!! Just when I get stuck on something—- boom. Chuck knowledge bestowed!
I never read it.
https://youtu.be/_oVz0xzBGlc -- If you listen to all of it and then come back here and praise the book before Chuck reads your comment you might still be alive come the end of the week.
Yesterday was D Day, the day before that was O Day.
Interesting how in joke telling, the refrain is told twice and resolve is the third.
Tell me more! This kind of rhetorical technique stuff is fascinating. Can you give an example?
Well, the story, “Knock, Knock” you wrote that appeared in Playboy…one of the key jokes in it, which the man tells his father—- that’s a perfect example. https://youtu.be/rquq0jALQIs
Also, in the movie, “Stand By Me,” the character that is the writer of the group, he tells a story where it has a refrain repetition as well… but one of his friends hates the ending and the others have questions which legitimately, might make the young writer a better story teller. I just watched it recently and man— it has a whole different meaning watching it as an adult as compared to me at 13. Since the film takes place in Portland, Oregon— made me think of a young Chuck Palahniuk and his beginnings. I’m also a Stephen King fan… here’s the story. https://youtu.be/TG2gjL-KUqw
Lastly, here’s my joke example— one that I DIDN’T have my mouth washed out with soap for and still makes people laugh: http://folklore.usc.edu/when-the-log-rolls-over-we-will-all-be-dead/
Yes, the compelling refrain that eventually resolves. BTW, I was a college kid reporter haunting the shooting locations during 'Stand By Me' trying to get a photo for a newspaper. It was in Cottage Grove, Oregon. Rob Reiner yelled at me.
Well?! Did you get the shot?! Don’t leave me hanging!!
I didn't, but one of the reporters with me did. We were just babies.
Our beautiful solstice will indeed be two weeks from today, on Tuesday the 21st.
My parents’ wedding anniversary was 3 days ago and I didn’t wish them congratulations until my mom texted to remind me at 10:00pm. Now this great post tempts me to wish them a Happy Gatsby Day this morning, and send Gatsby quotes throughout the day.
Do it.
Full disclosure. 'Gatsby' is such a good teaching tool that when it fell into public domain this year I began going to charity shops and buying up used copies for my students, and to put into gift boxes.
“ Chuck , you remind me of a Rose , of an absolute Rose. Doesn’t Chuck remind you of a Rose” ?
I’m looking for patterns As an acting student in Australia ,Among a lot of insights you’ve shared . allowing repetition occurs ,you won’t be having to pay too much attention , just like poetry and song lyrics you know it will happen again so you better enjoy it:)
dominant Silence breaks as well..
Exactly. Also consider the "prologues" used in 19th century fiction. "In this chapter David Copperfield journeys to..." They're similar to the thumbnails used on the front of 'Citizen Kane' and 'Titanic' that synopsis the plot before we see it dramatized.
I remember every chapter from Cormac McCarthy's blood meridian start with a few lines explaining what will happen in the chapter. At first it sort of bugged me but It somehow works.
Thanks for playing Gatsby if you can. I'll get a long (day) now.
Ah, Nick, why is it often 'The Great Gatsby' and not ‘Tender is the Night’? Did you know, Nick, that Gatsby is possibly Fitzgerald’s most popular work because they included it with the release of ‘The Last Tycoon’ to make up for page count? That’s right -- despite Tender being regarded as, even by Fitzgerald’s own admission, his best work, Gatsby is maybe the best known and loved due to what amounts to the book being the right page length to add on to Tycoon. Crazy, huh? Oh, why are you frowning, Nick? Because I’m not making any sense? Well, see, Nick, the thing is we’re not real. We’re all fictional creations, every one of our very thoughts and actions are dictated by what we might consider to be God, but is in all actuality a mortal man slaving away over paper with pencil. How do I know this? I play the pretty little fool, Nick, but my existence is one infinitely more tragic. I’m cursed with knowing what I am -- which isn’t really anything more than ink on a page. What are we, Nick? We’re nothing; abstractions at the most. But then again, what is human consciousness if nothing more than an abstraction? Oh, hang on a second -- I really must get these curtains open; It’s such a nice summer’s day!
First, much of the Gatsby charm comes from its brevity. Second, it's easy to dissect. Third, it's romantic fatalism which only gets more interesting as people age and recognize their own limitations and delusions.
Did that cursed jewel ever arrive?
Unfortunately no, it hasn’t. Should it have by now?
Maybe. Keep me posted. Sigh.
Told you I was hexed, man.
I agree with all three and hope you don’t mind me throwing in a fourth -- it’s one of the most rhythmically eloquent books written in the English language. Thing seriously reads like a composed piece of music.
Agreed.
I don’t know about you guys but I think my post-modernist magnum opus about how Daisy is actually a self aware character and how she does things in Gatsby intentionally -- such as the hit and run -- knowing all the while what the consequences will be is going to rock the literary world and be a bestselling classic.
One thing about Gatsby that’s stuck in my mind because of you, Chuck, is the ‘best page break’ in all of fiction. The part of the book when it’s at its most tragic and how it’s pared with the most comforting. Can you cut to the chase and do a whole lecture series on the book, por favor?
In my younger, more vulnerable years, Chuck gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my head ever since. “Don't stick nothing up your penis." He didn't say much more after that. He didn't need to.
Have you watched The Boys season 3 episode 1 yet? (On Amazon prime?)
I haven't watched it yet but I really do plan on it, Wil!
I loved the first two seasons.
About 8 minutes in, there’s an incredible(?) scene with the Ant-Man stand-in and your “don’t stick nothing up your penis” life-lesson :)
That was remarkable!! I loved that so much I played it like 4 times. Sad though, I wanted it to go on a little longer.
You're gonna laugh, but at first I thought the hole was his butthole LOL
Someday, I got to rewatch the first two seasons. I feel it is a very re-watchable show - the first time viewing, it’s all shock and awe; the next time viewing, you notice everything you missed the first time because you were so shocked and awed.
I just got done watching the episode 3. Did you notice that gesture from Starlight at the end of the episode? That was the second time. Would Chuck call that a black-out gesture? It was a pretty strong thing to end on.
As I mentioned it before it could have been the Millionaire and I and 20th wedding anniversary but it is very much the 10th of saving Michaels life for me.
I’ve done checked out the audiobook of Gatsby to listen to while I pack the car for vacation. Chuck has an outsized influence on my entertainment choices.
Recently rewatched the Fight Club movie. The rumors about Durden remind me of the wild rumors folks spread about Gatsby in the book.
Nice catch. 'Fight Club' was always a rewrite of Gatsby.
I'm odd out here. I never dug Gatsby the way others do. That's not to say it's unworthy of praise, just not mine. I suppose I'm partial to modern contemporary, upmarket fiction. To those who celebrate, please do so and forget my Debbie-Downer comment.
*Erase last three seconds of memory starting here*
This post caught my attention when Chuck mentioned the repeating line. It's naive of me to think it hasn't been done by anyone but Paulie Walnuts. Yet here we are. David Chase, turns out you weren't the first to stylize it.
Granted, it's far from my favorite book, but it's an excellent teaching tool. And it's easy to get, and translated well. I'd hate to make you read 800 pages to study achieving just one effect.
I was being a smartass about the repeating line thing. I've seen you do it maybe half a dozen times. David Sedaris used it often. Even Fran Lebowitz did in her "Reader" MS. Not sure if she used the style in other works. Andy Warhol used it, but his shit was annoying. You'll find lines is Ellis' American Psycho that sound so similar they feel like repeating lines with no repeating lines. Honestly, that book got so redundant, the first 200 put me to sleep. I know what he was going for and it was effective, just tedious. But the repeating line you were talking about was used sparingly. It forces instant recall. That always works for me. I dig it.
Amy Hempel: "And you're going back in?" I'm going back in. (From 'The Harvest')
"It wears you down." I am wearing down. (From 'Deliver Us Not Into Penn Station')
Oh, shit! You should've led with Hempel. That woman has wild skills. I'm seriously delighted you mentioned The Harvest. That story did what Fight Club did; it made me read fast, and cathartic. It's brevity is its power. Do you remember how Mitch Hedberg would make a joke and get a mild reaction, so he'd bookend it with, "And yes, I know that joke was dumb." The Harvest reminded me of him; the exaggerations, the omissions and the subsequent clarity. If you start lecturing metafiction, this is a prime homework assignment for your peeps. It's in my Top 5 reads.