Thank you so much for smashing all these Gloves Off in the last few weeks, Chuck. They always remind me of a bunch of tricks that somehow keep slipping away with time.
Can I ask a silly question? When you review one of our stories, do you have a first pass as a reader, and then a second one with your editor hat on? Or do you add notes as you go?
When I re-edit my own stories after a while I tend to read ‘em first as a reader. To get the “feeling” of the stories. Catching all those verticals you mentioned above.
But yeah, just a personal curiosity. Thanks again.
Consider that when we talk in the abstract/theoretical about writing, the ideas are less sticky. But when we apply them to actual work, we're able to retain the new technique.
Me personally, I have to see an idea in action, then I can recall it.
I totally agree. And when it clicks, the pattern, the rule, the method, any of them, when it does click you feel like you've unlocked a new level at your favourite video game.
Totally side note, but thanks to you I've been working with Amy in the last few months. I mean Grace Loyd Amy. Don't know if you remember, but I think a couple of years ago you wrote a post about some of the best editors you worked with and you mentioned her.
I genuinely love her. She's marvellous to work with. She takes no shit and kicks my arse all the time. And I enjoy every single moment of it. With all the things I've learnt from you over the years and now with her editing, I feel like my writing is improving a lot.
Being able to define vertical was not useful. Not until I confused an audience with a story, and then it clicked. I gotta screw everything up a few times before it sticks.
I was trying to do too much. Too much subtext. Too many objects. Too much going on for a reader to keep track. I thought it was perfectly clear until everyone looked at me with glazed eyes. Then I cut a lot out, and enhanced the vertical of what remained. I said the same things in several different ways to make sure that the audience understood.
First few drafts are exploratory surgery. I try many different things.
Last drafts are amputations, cutting out all of the things that dont work, and building the vertical for what remains.
Vertical is really difficult to grasp, until something like that happens. I still dont get it entirely, but I have a better understanding of it now.
Thank you Chuck for the lesson and thank you Craig for submitting the story. There was a lot of good stuff to go over here in this post. I will be coming back to reference this post for a good long while. The information outlined here will help me reinforce what I am doing well and not-so-well in my own fiction.
Maybe I'll volunteer something from my substack later on a future gloves off, but all my substack short stories are year+ old drafts at this point. Also I've had more than my fair share of Chuck feedback. I'll let other people get torn apart.
“Jesus-fucking-Christ-snorting-coke” is great. Thanks for sharing Craig.
Chuck, stellar feedback as always. I learned about the “horses” as you’ve mentioned them, wayyyy back and still struggle with them in my work. It’s such a simple concept, yet it’s like trying to cornhole that angry rattlesnake I found under a rock last week.
To me horses are simple: What's the one thing the author is saying over and over with different anecdotes? Minimalism is about saying the same theme repeatedly but in a new way each time. Think of how a Skipper's Seafood commercial on television only says "Skipper's food & Happiness" but does so with numerous, quickly edited, different images.
…the message being sent, but relayed or presented in different manners that morph throughout. Awesome. That makes sense to me. Not sure if you ever shared the link to that Skippers commercial but I’m gonna dig and try to find it. Thanks for that.
Thanks for asking. The Meisner Technique is so basic, but that allows the exercises to escalate to tension within seconds. Me being the class newbie doesn't help. Most of my fellow students have done this for eighteen months, so I'm wallowing in the weeds. Very humbling.
Right. Okay. So there’s a greater focus on the other actor, not necessarily the internal battle that you are dealing with as a character, and since they are further ahead of you in the learning process you’re playing catch up. Sounds like fun though. And I know for me at least, being humbled is vital. Hang in there, champ.
The angle of the dead father seems so obvious now, but I hadn’t connected that to the story before. It’s helpful to see where I created unnecessary confusion, and I’m eager to get to work on improving this.
The narrator has Asperger’s Syndrome (something I’m quite familiar with) so the overly precise measurements and the complex language are all deliberate. I did not make this clear, and I can see some possibilities of using the dead father to show this to the reader.
The androgynous companion is the character from the instructions (self surgery like putting together ikea furniture) and I didn’t realise how much confusion I had created between the instruction character and the pillsbury dough boy hoodie.
As a Canadian, I left the metric off the tape measure on purpose, since I figured most of the people reading this would be American, and of course I was trying to be inclusive and polite.
I appreciate your insights and since it’s a long weekend here I may even get through revising this piece in the next few days.
Glad I could help. In workshop I submitted the first draft of the story "Knock-Knock" and Chelsea Cain asked, "Where's the narrator's mother?" In that moment I realized the story's secret: That the father had shot the mother. The next draft was wildly better.
As Tom Spanbauer would advise, "We're writing the first draft to discover the nature of the narrator's broken heart."
I knew it! About ‘Knock Knock’ I mean. That was already my favorite short story but now I feel like o got the implication and have doubled down on my appreciation of it. So good.
There was a Polack at the workshop too and he had a cream covered story hiding a fist-flavored Michael Lobe, just waiting for Chuck to slip up and then--POW! The Polack creamed his jeans.
Wait...is that the legit cannon for Knock, Knock? The dad shot the mom? I never came to that conclusion. Yikes. Poor woman couldn't take a joke OR a bullet.
I'm sorry, Chuck. Before I dive into this a little later, I must pester you with a question. You've given me, or, all your students really, permission to push things further. To go wild, to get provocative with our work. But what if I release something that is triggering for people and I am faced with backlash. How about overwhelming backlash? What's the best way to respond? Ignore it? Apologize? Release something even more triggering? I'm also interested in what writers here would do in that situation.
I appreciate this question and am also interested in the response. Me personally, I’d never apologize for someone being upset about words. Being offended is a choice. That said, I do understand that we operate in a community where we are trying to be respectful and learn together. At the end of the day… fuck what they think. But with all due respect and such.
The short answer is always: "What would Shirley Jackson do?" Reportedly, Ms. Jackson adored reading her hate mail while drinking scotch.
The longer answer is, "How can you seduce your reader (and yourself) into going into the dark?" Ideally, the story should beat up the writer worse than it beats up the reader. That way, your suffering will temper that of your listener. If you're up there reading "Guts" you're losing so much dignity that it feels less like you're bullying and dumping on your audience. If the story doesn't glorify you, if you seem to suffer at least as much as your reader will, you can't be accused of tormenting your reader. Make sense?
All the more reason for a story that starts funny and offensive to arrive at a place of tragedy. I've argued this with Joe Rogan. My stand is that people mostly object to comedy that beats up and bullys others. If such comedy could also show the humanity of the comic, such comedy wouldn't seem so abusive.
Thank you. I think I got it. You're essentially jumping in front of the bullet for them, in a way. As long as you are the one being humiliated and losing dignity, people won't feel like you're trying to attack them. It's kinda like you're saying, "we're a team and we're working together."
I read this when you first posted the link Craig, and really enjoyed it. I could absolutely see something like this happening, considering the state of the US healthcare system. It would be marketed by the feds as "Affordable Home Healthcare Act" or something very optimistic sounding, and a handful of crony companies to the FDA would be Surgi-Self "preferred vendors".
Two somewhat unrelated questions for the group:
1. Chuck mentions at the end that this is how a workshop works. I love it. Curious if there would be an appetite for a sort of forum or private channel to discuss other writing issues outside the context of a substack post's comment section. This is Chuck's home, so mostly asking him. It could dilute the energy to have another place where we all talk. Plenty of other concerns I'm sure. I'm just hungry for more discussion, and my town doesn't have a very active writers group.
2. Directly related to above, I'm currently writing in two very different genres (YA with moral lessons, and weird short fiction). I love both. But my concern is that building an audience/platform in weird short humor could take away from my ability to attract parents and children to my YA stuff, and vice versa. Should I consider a pen name for one or both? Should I focus on one, and forget about the other for a while?
I’m definitely interested. Mentioned something like this before but also don’t want to step on any toes or poach. I’m also in a place where writers workshops are non existent. I’ve noticed the shelf life on discourse for these posts is roughly 48 hours. After that, all bets are off.
I like how you include Lish in some of your responses. Nobody would be able to get through their first sentence without him shutting it down and probably giving a three hour rant/lecture.
Thanks for doing these and thanks for sharing your work, Craig!
Thank you so much for doing these, Chuck! I always learn so much from them.
I’ve posted this link before but I understand if the writing isn’t good enough or short enough. Would be amazing to get this looked at by you.
https://open.substack.com/pub/cornflowerblue/p/anyone-better
The really key quality is "short" otherwise the Substack format gripes to me about the length of the resulting post. I'll take a look. And thanks.
Sounds great! If it’s too long I can do some more whittling down and try again next time. Nonetheless thank you for the consideration!
Oh, boy! Can’t wait to dig into this after work.
Dropping this here for gloves off in case the others don’t work out: https://bryanwiler.substack.com/p/swimmers
Thanks for raising your hand, Craig!
These reads are my favorite part of the week.
https://drewclements.substack.com/p/no-caffeine?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
Thank you so much for smashing all these Gloves Off in the last few weeks, Chuck. They always remind me of a bunch of tricks that somehow keep slipping away with time.
Can I ask a silly question? When you review one of our stories, do you have a first pass as a reader, and then a second one with your editor hat on? Or do you add notes as you go?
When I re-edit my own stories after a while I tend to read ‘em first as a reader. To get the “feeling” of the stories. Catching all those verticals you mentioned above.
But yeah, just a personal curiosity. Thanks again.
Consider that when we talk in the abstract/theoretical about writing, the ideas are less sticky. But when we apply them to actual work, we're able to retain the new technique.
Me personally, I have to see an idea in action, then I can recall it.
I totally agree. And when it clicks, the pattern, the rule, the method, any of them, when it does click you feel like you've unlocked a new level at your favourite video game.
Totally side note, but thanks to you I've been working with Amy in the last few months. I mean Grace Loyd Amy. Don't know if you remember, but I think a couple of years ago you wrote a post about some of the best editors you worked with and you mentioned her.
I genuinely love her. She's marvellous to work with. She takes no shit and kicks my arse all the time. And I enjoy every single moment of it. With all the things I've learnt from you over the years and now with her editing, I feel like my writing is improving a lot.
Thanks for recommending her.
Did you book a consultation through her website?
Yup. Although she’s insanely busy. I mean, I wouldn’t expect anything less view her portfolio and experience.
Wonderful! Amy Grace is a fantastic editor. Ruthless.
Amy edited the essay "People, Places, Things" that I'd originally sold to Scrib'd, but posted here last week. That editing process took weeks.
Yup, she told me in our first chat.
I think she got tired of me hammering on how much you inspired me and my style of writing
what is her website? I am struggling to find it.
Being able to define vertical was not useful. Not until I confused an audience with a story, and then it clicked. I gotta screw everything up a few times before it sticks.
John, can you elaborate on that a bit? Confused an audience with a story…
I was trying to do too much. Too much subtext. Too many objects. Too much going on for a reader to keep track. I thought it was perfectly clear until everyone looked at me with glazed eyes. Then I cut a lot out, and enhanced the vertical of what remained. I said the same things in several different ways to make sure that the audience understood.
First few drafts are exploratory surgery. I try many different things.
Last drafts are amputations, cutting out all of the things that dont work, and building the vertical for what remains.
Vertical is really difficult to grasp, until something like that happens. I still dont get it entirely, but I have a better understanding of it now.
Thanks for that. Well said.
I need to make many many more mistakes also 😉
Thank you Chuck for the lesson and thank you Craig for submitting the story. There was a lot of good stuff to go over here in this post. I will be coming back to reference this post for a good long while. The information outlined here will help me reinforce what I am doing well and not-so-well in my own fiction.
Maybe I'll volunteer something from my substack later on a future gloves off, but all my substack short stories are year+ old drafts at this point. Also I've had more than my fair share of Chuck feedback. I'll let other people get torn apart.
I’ve had worse scars from that time I was attacked by a polar bear…
“Jesus-fucking-Christ-snorting-coke” is great. Thanks for sharing Craig.
Chuck, stellar feedback as always. I learned about the “horses” as you’ve mentioned them, wayyyy back and still struggle with them in my work. It’s such a simple concept, yet it’s like trying to cornhole that angry rattlesnake I found under a rock last week.
Challenging, indeed. But hey, that’s the fun part right.
To me horses are simple: What's the one thing the author is saying over and over with different anecdotes? Minimalism is about saying the same theme repeatedly but in a new way each time. Think of how a Skipper's Seafood commercial on television only says "Skipper's food & Happiness" but does so with numerous, quickly edited, different images.
I love that.
…the message being sent, but relayed or presented in different manners that morph throughout. Awesome. That makes sense to me. Not sure if you ever shared the link to that Skippers commercial but I’m gonna dig and try to find it. Thanks for that.
Say the same thing a hundred different ways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIsKpKR8Bw4
You’re the man, Professor P!! Hell yea.
“Can you create this world without judging it?” Awesome work Craig! Thanks for dissecting yourself in front of us!
Chuck, how are acting classes going?
Thanks for asking. The Meisner Technique is so basic, but that allows the exercises to escalate to tension within seconds. Me being the class newbie doesn't help. Most of my fellow students have done this for eighteen months, so I'm wallowing in the weeds. Very humbling.
Right. Okay. So there’s a greater focus on the other actor, not necessarily the internal battle that you are dealing with as a character, and since they are further ahead of you in the learning process you’re playing catch up. Sounds like fun though. And I know for me at least, being humbled is vital. Hang in there, champ.
Thanks for your feedback Chuck.
The angle of the dead father seems so obvious now, but I hadn’t connected that to the story before. It’s helpful to see where I created unnecessary confusion, and I’m eager to get to work on improving this.
The narrator has Asperger’s Syndrome (something I’m quite familiar with) so the overly precise measurements and the complex language are all deliberate. I did not make this clear, and I can see some possibilities of using the dead father to show this to the reader.
The androgynous companion is the character from the instructions (self surgery like putting together ikea furniture) and I didn’t realise how much confusion I had created between the instruction character and the pillsbury dough boy hoodie.
As a Canadian, I left the metric off the tape measure on purpose, since I figured most of the people reading this would be American, and of course I was trying to be inclusive and polite.
I appreciate your insights and since it’s a long weekend here I may even get through revising this piece in the next few days.
Thanks again
Glad I could help. In workshop I submitted the first draft of the story "Knock-Knock" and Chelsea Cain asked, "Where's the narrator's mother?" In that moment I realized the story's secret: That the father had shot the mother. The next draft was wildly better.
As Tom Spanbauer would advise, "We're writing the first draft to discover the nature of the narrator's broken heart."
I knew it! About ‘Knock Knock’ I mean. That was already my favorite short story but now I feel like o got the implication and have doubled down on my appreciation of it. So good.
There was a Polack at the workshop too and he had a cream covered story hiding a fist-flavored Michael Lobe, just waiting for Chuck to slip up and then--POW! The Polack creamed his jeans.
I'm that Polack.
Wait...is that the legit cannon for Knock, Knock? The dad shot the mom? I never came to that conclusion. Yikes. Poor woman couldn't take a joke OR a bullet.
I'm sorry, Chuck. Before I dive into this a little later, I must pester you with a question. You've given me, or, all your students really, permission to push things further. To go wild, to get provocative with our work. But what if I release something that is triggering for people and I am faced with backlash. How about overwhelming backlash? What's the best way to respond? Ignore it? Apologize? Release something even more triggering? I'm also interested in what writers here would do in that situation.
I appreciate this question and am also interested in the response. Me personally, I’d never apologize for someone being upset about words. Being offended is a choice. That said, I do understand that we operate in a community where we are trying to be respectful and learn together. At the end of the day… fuck what they think. But with all due respect and such.
Also, can’t wait for your post.
The short answer is always: "What would Shirley Jackson do?" Reportedly, Ms. Jackson adored reading her hate mail while drinking scotch.
The longer answer is, "How can you seduce your reader (and yourself) into going into the dark?" Ideally, the story should beat up the writer worse than it beats up the reader. That way, your suffering will temper that of your listener. If you're up there reading "Guts" you're losing so much dignity that it feels less like you're bullying and dumping on your audience. If the story doesn't glorify you, if you seem to suffer at least as much as your reader will, you can't be accused of tormenting your reader. Make sense?
All the more reason for a story that starts funny and offensive to arrive at a place of tragedy. I've argued this with Joe Rogan. My stand is that people mostly object to comedy that beats up and bullys others. If such comedy could also show the humanity of the comic, such comedy wouldn't seem so abusive.
Well said.
Thank you. I think I got it. You're essentially jumping in front of the bullet for them, in a way. As long as you are the one being humiliated and losing dignity, people won't feel like you're trying to attack them. It's kinda like you're saying, "we're a team and we're working together."
Having had the pleasure of reading earlier drafts of this, it’s so eye opening to see it from another perspective. Thank you both.
I’ve told Craig many times that I wish I had his ability to write a horizontal plot.
How do we post a link to our “glove off” story?
Paste the link into a Comment. I'll usually take the first link posted on each new Gloves Off.
I read this when you first posted the link Craig, and really enjoyed it. I could absolutely see something like this happening, considering the state of the US healthcare system. It would be marketed by the feds as "Affordable Home Healthcare Act" or something very optimistic sounding, and a handful of crony companies to the FDA would be Surgi-Self "preferred vendors".
Two somewhat unrelated questions for the group:
1. Chuck mentions at the end that this is how a workshop works. I love it. Curious if there would be an appetite for a sort of forum or private channel to discuss other writing issues outside the context of a substack post's comment section. This is Chuck's home, so mostly asking him. It could dilute the energy to have another place where we all talk. Plenty of other concerns I'm sure. I'm just hungry for more discussion, and my town doesn't have a very active writers group.
2. Directly related to above, I'm currently writing in two very different genres (YA with moral lessons, and weird short fiction). I love both. But my concern is that building an audience/platform in weird short humor could take away from my ability to attract parents and children to my YA stuff, and vice versa. Should I consider a pen name for one or both? Should I focus on one, and forget about the other for a while?
Currently considering this post about writing under a pen name:
https://smartauthorslab.com/this-is-how-to-market-books-under-a-pen-name/
I’m definitely interested. Mentioned something like this before but also don’t want to step on any toes or poach. I’m also in a place where writers workshops are non existent. I’ve noticed the shelf life on discourse for these posts is roughly 48 hours. After that, all bets are off.
I like how you include Lish in some of your responses. Nobody would be able to get through their first sentence without him shutting it down and probably giving a three hour rant/lecture.