Craig tried to get your attention in the last post. I wouldn't volunteer someone against their will. Craig, Matt, Sean, and I all meet and do video call readings every Sunday and talk writing all the time. Have for 2 years now. Its been helpful. But the critiques from you are extremely helpful. Thanks again!
It turns out that my brother has a friend from college who is an agent. Got in touch with him, and got rejected a while back. Gotta get this other, newer story good enough to sell by the end of the year.
Consolation prize: I created a Discord where the people from here can congregate, share work, critique, et cetera. I should warn you that no one is very active there. But if you share work and ask for feedback, someone(s) will respond.
Posted this in connection with a prior post but thought I'd post for this.
CoZytOwn
“Dahhhhdddd”
“What?”
“Dahhhhhdddddddddd.”
“What?” Charles Finnery shouted back with increased irritation.
“There’s another dead mailman in the front yard.” answered Billy.
Charles stopped squinting at the diorama and shuffled to the vestibule and peered through the glass. Sure enough, there was the fourth dead postman in the past 15 months.
“Call Mrs. Picklesworth,” Charlie shouted.
The family gathered around the body as it lay in a giant slushie of cherry red snow.
Mrs. Picklesworth strode up the snow covered lawn to join them chortling
“Glorious day, Mr. Finnery, except this little mishap I suppose.”
Before an answer, Sheriff Bromide arrived with, “Well, at least I won’t have to waste time matching the killer’s footprints.”
Mrs. Pickleworth gave daughter Susie a giant outsize wink, pulling teabags and sugar cookies out of a giant lime green purse stating matter of factly, “Why don’t we warm these old bones with a spot of tea.”
They made for the front door, with Charles stopping to sit the body up, “Now it looks like part of the holiday display.”
Sheriff Bromide blurted out, “Hell, you could leave the body there till spring with the winter Farmer ‘Mac says we’re gonna have.”
They all had a good chuckle and retired to the tea room festooned with doilies and quilts.
“Now isn’t this lovely,” Picklesworth said through a smile upon resting her teacup in a delightful saucer.
Charlie, Mrs. Finnery, Sheriff Bromide, Billy, Susie (she preferred Susan) and Chimera, the pet Doobrador, were waiting intently for Mrs. Picklesworth to begin.
She began, “I think it is helpful to state the obvious, when thinking through an unsolved crime. Now, what do the four murders have in common?”
Billy shouted, “They were all mailmen?”
“Yes. Anything else?”
Billy, “They died on our front lawn?”
“Yes, and ……..”
“A big ol’ knife in the back?” Billy beamed.
“And, therefore?”
Susie, eh, Susan, blurted out, “This is where the Deux ex Machina comes into play.”
“You betcha.”
Just then the doorbell rang.
“Billy, why don’t you invite the man at the door in,” Picklesworth stated dryly while eyeing the biscuits.
Billy ran to the door and swung it wide. Mr. Burbounstiff, the local UPS driver stumbled in, almost dropping all four of the heavy packages balanced in his arms.
“I think we’ve been expecting you Burbounstiff,” the Sheriff uttered, releasing the cuffs from his belt. “Assume the position.”
Burbounstiff put his hands behind him.
“Just a moment Sheriff. I think there is a package we should open. I think you’ll find one addressed to Billy,” stated Picklesworth matter of factly.
The sheriff opened the box, revealing a set of 12 Ginsu brand knives. Guaranteed to cut through anything.
“Oh Billy,” Mrs. Finnery loudly sighed. Picking up the knives, she pushed through the cellophane with her red, manicured hands.
Taking the largest of the knives she swung horizontally slitting the Sheriff's throat. Then turning, she seethed, “Cozy this, you crumpet-eating bitch,” plunging it deep into Mrs. Picklesworth’s heart, killing her instantly.
It seems so simple, but I never considered how complex plots can work best in simple settings (and vice versa.) I’ll try playing around with that in my next story.
Sort of unrelated, but I’ve always been curious how you approach revisions. How do you know what peer feedback is on the mark and what isn’t? How do you know what to cut/add etc? How do you know when you’re done?
Been reworking a story, and I feel like a stranger in a strange land trying to navigate the process.
Typically, if the suggestion is based on the existing draft, it's more likely to be good ideas. If the suggestion is to bring something entirely new to the piece, I nod politely and ignore the new ideas.
Thanks for all the feedback, Chuck. Great stuff. The “Linen” setting is brilliant. I appreciate your time and input more than you know. This is part of a bigger project I’ve been working on for far too long. I’ve got a lot to learn.
Can I really push you to develop some physical verb sequences? Even "the phone vibrates, vibrating shirt and chest hair, buzzing against the bones underneath" whatever. Just something that will keep us grounded in on-the-body beats, used occasionally during the dialog sequences. Unpacking moments of smell can also do that, as you demonstrate with the baked phone.
So glad you’re doing Gloves off again. Super informative and I love getting a peek into the minds of this group. So many smart, funny and talented people.
Chuck, if you can elaborate on this “Can you replace any of the above sentences with a series of physical actions that will pop next to the somewhat abstract events taking place?”
As I mentioned in a Comment, just now (above), I was looking for a physical moment to help ground the dialog. The phone ringing. An on-the-body sense. Just a verb-heavy sentence that will pop when it's set in the middle of the dialog and internal monologue.
Just check out my substack. 17 episodes on there. Funny enough, the title isn’t “In the desert” that’s just the first line. The title for this episode is Fremont, but it matters little.
Thanks for asking. I've been somewhat hesitant because I don't understand the way rights work in this area and whether this would make the work "published". Some online magazines only want to publish unpublished works. I've also been trying to figure out Amazon with their serial program and whether publishing on substack would preclude that.
Hiya Chuck! Been loving the recent Gloves Off stories. Your lessons solidify with each post. Had a question too. You said your teacher told you a writer should have a reason for every decision they make in a story. You can take that even further by saying that every word or sentence should have a purpose. But my question was...why does a writer need to have a reason for everything? Is it to equip the writer to talk their work or to explain it?
This "having a reason" might sound ponderous, but it's easy once you adjust to writing from the "inside" of a character. Unless you're writing from within the character's experience and associates, you're likely to use "writerly" shortcuts and cliches. What Gordon Lish called "received text." This writerly language robs your story of freshness and makes each project feel like something you're just trying to get done. This rush to get done robs the reader, who's forced to read 800 pages for the small payoff at the end of Modernism.
However, if you attack a story as a series of small, particular choices you're more likely to create the strange, beautiful sentences of Amy Hempel or Mark Richard. Each sentence reads like a little magic, and the reader is constantly rewarded -- instead of forcing the reader to race through 800 pages for a dubious reward.
This summer I'm rereading Clive Cussler's 'Raise the Titanic' just because it's classic Modernism. The book is 500+ pages that lead to a skeleton and some rocks inside a box. Not a great novel, but a great example of "espionage fiction" to lampoon. Now, if I can wed the tropes of Cussler and James Patterson to the beauty of Hempel, I'll have something worthwhile.
My father was always recommending stuff like this to me. The Clive Cussler, Tom Clancy, Dale Brown. I never cared for much of it. I do enjoy reading Michael Crichton for modernism but mainly for the intelligence of the writing.
it is great to have the gloves off series back. Regarding the purpose of the character or his/her reasons for her doings, I struggle somehow with developing a clear motivation(which will make the characters behaviour reasonable as I understood) and building those experiences and associations. Could you give a starting point, or any advice on that? Big thanks in advance.
Really interesting story here - well done, Erik. These two lines really grabbed me:
"You go from getting engaged to getting embalmed in the blink of an eye."
"Dance floors to death rattles, overnight."
As for the feedback, the notes below from Chuck immediately made me think of the Game of Thrones series, which in my view has a dense plot (think of how many characters and families and storylines intersect) AND a unique setting. That could be why a segment of readers bailed on the books - or TV adaptation - because it was simply too much for them to absorb.
"A plot that’s novel and dense will work best in standard, unremarkable settings. While unique settings will work best to ennoble a mundane plot. It’s very tough to make a convoluted plot work in a bizarre setting."
Great fun reading all this - and everyone's comments. Thanks all! Chuck, your idea of setting a weird plot in a standard setting or a simple plot in weird, unusual setting- is akin to something I learned when writing ad copy and headlines (longtime copywriter). If you have a warped headline you want a simple image background... if you have a warped image you want a simple, straightforward headline. Otherwise they will fight each other and the ad (or story) won't bust through.
I was first revolted by the cookie-cutter modeling in that book. But working in frameworks does spur a lot of innovation to avoid blatant reference.
Erik, this story is very visual. Reminded me of Pulp Fiction's Winston Wolfe scene quite a bit in a good way. My thought was, what if Kyle was a Title 9 scholarship athlete and the fix was called in by her coach? Could make that character more relatable.
Oh a system story. This will be something new to try out. Thanks Chuck and thanks Erik.
Note that a ton of science fiction is system stories. A mundane crisis... set in outer space.
What is your favorite?
I've been working a lot on my essay and revising My short story Silver Lining recently. These gloves off are very helpful.
Not my story. Belongs to Craig: https://open.substack.com/pub/craigfatherofkittens/p/dont-it-yourself-er?r=1epxph&utm_medium=ios
Again, consent is crucial to this process. I can only examine the stories posted by the readers themselves. No offense.
Craig tried to get your attention in the last post. I wouldn't volunteer someone against their will. Craig, Matt, Sean, and I all meet and do video call readings every Sunday and talk writing all the time. Have for 2 years now. Its been helpful. But the critiques from you are extremely helpful. Thanks again!
It turns out that my brother has a friend from college who is an agent. Got in touch with him, and got rejected a while back. Gotta get this other, newer story good enough to sell by the end of the year.
Hi John. Is your group open to new members? No worries, either way.
Consolation prize: I created a Discord where the people from here can congregate, share work, critique, et cetera. I should warn you that no one is very active there. But if you share work and ask for feedback, someone(s) will respond.
https://discord.com/invite/BaMbNJee
Right on. Thanks for the response, my guy.
If you want to get in touch there, Im happy to give you some feedback. Im sure the other guys will too.
I'm so glad Gloves Off is back. I'm blown away by how much I learn from every single one. Thanks so much for doing these!
Glad to hear it.
Chuck thanks for this and thanks for sharing Erik, I’d love to see what you make in revisions.
Also I’d love your input on this piece of mine Chuck:
https://open.substack.com/pub/craigfatherofkittens/p/dont-it-yourself-er?r=1epxph&utm_medium=ios
Perfect. You're up next.
Posted this in connection with a prior post but thought I'd post for this.
CoZytOwn
“Dahhhhdddd”
“What?”
“Dahhhhhdddddddddd.”
“What?” Charles Finnery shouted back with increased irritation.
“There’s another dead mailman in the front yard.” answered Billy.
Charles stopped squinting at the diorama and shuffled to the vestibule and peered through the glass. Sure enough, there was the fourth dead postman in the past 15 months.
“Call Mrs. Picklesworth,” Charlie shouted.
The family gathered around the body as it lay in a giant slushie of cherry red snow.
Mrs. Picklesworth strode up the snow covered lawn to join them chortling
“Glorious day, Mr. Finnery, except this little mishap I suppose.”
Before an answer, Sheriff Bromide arrived with, “Well, at least I won’t have to waste time matching the killer’s footprints.”
Mrs. Pickleworth gave daughter Susie a giant outsize wink, pulling teabags and sugar cookies out of a giant lime green purse stating matter of factly, “Why don’t we warm these old bones with a spot of tea.”
They made for the front door, with Charles stopping to sit the body up, “Now it looks like part of the holiday display.”
Sheriff Bromide blurted out, “Hell, you could leave the body there till spring with the winter Farmer ‘Mac says we’re gonna have.”
They all had a good chuckle and retired to the tea room festooned with doilies and quilts.
“Now isn’t this lovely,” Picklesworth said through a smile upon resting her teacup in a delightful saucer.
Charlie, Mrs. Finnery, Sheriff Bromide, Billy, Susie (she preferred Susan) and Chimera, the pet Doobrador, were waiting intently for Mrs. Picklesworth to begin.
She began, “I think it is helpful to state the obvious, when thinking through an unsolved crime. Now, what do the four murders have in common?”
Billy shouted, “They were all mailmen?”
“Yes. Anything else?”
Billy, “They died on our front lawn?”
“Yes, and ……..”
“A big ol’ knife in the back?” Billy beamed.
“And, therefore?”
Susie, eh, Susan, blurted out, “This is where the Deux ex Machina comes into play.”
“You betcha.”
Just then the doorbell rang.
“Billy, why don’t you invite the man at the door in,” Picklesworth stated dryly while eyeing the biscuits.
Billy ran to the door and swung it wide. Mr. Burbounstiff, the local UPS driver stumbled in, almost dropping all four of the heavy packages balanced in his arms.
“I think we’ve been expecting you Burbounstiff,” the Sheriff uttered, releasing the cuffs from his belt. “Assume the position.”
Burbounstiff put his hands behind him.
“Just a moment Sheriff. I think there is a package we should open. I think you’ll find one addressed to Billy,” stated Picklesworth matter of factly.
The sheriff opened the box, revealing a set of 12 Ginsu brand knives. Guaranteed to cut through anything.
“Oh Billy,” Mrs. Finnery loudly sighed. Picking up the knives, she pushed through the cellophane with her red, manicured hands.
Taking the largest of the knives she swung horizontally slitting the Sheriff's throat. Then turning, she seethed, “Cozy this, you crumpet-eating bitch,” plunging it deep into Mrs. Picklesworth’s heart, killing her instantly.
Thank you Erik and Chuck.
It seems so simple, but I never considered how complex plots can work best in simple settings (and vice versa.) I’ll try playing around with that in my next story.
Sort of unrelated, but I’ve always been curious how you approach revisions. How do you know what peer feedback is on the mark and what isn’t? How do you know what to cut/add etc? How do you know when you’re done?
Been reworking a story, and I feel like a stranger in a strange land trying to navigate the process.
Typically, if the suggestion is based on the existing draft, it's more likely to be good ideas. If the suggestion is to bring something entirely new to the piece, I nod politely and ignore the new ideas.
That’s a good rule of thumb, thanks!
Thanks for all the feedback, Chuck. Great stuff. The “Linen” setting is brilliant. I appreciate your time and input more than you know. This is part of a bigger project I’ve been working on for far too long. I’ve got a lot to learn.
Can I really push you to develop some physical verb sequences? Even "the phone vibrates, vibrating shirt and chest hair, buzzing against the bones underneath" whatever. Just something that will keep us grounded in on-the-body beats, used occasionally during the dialog sequences. Unpacking moments of smell can also do that, as you demonstrate with the baked phone.
And thank you for offering up.
So glad you’re doing Gloves off again. Super informative and I love getting a peek into the minds of this group. So many smart, funny and talented people.
One last question… IS this an example of a system story?
I see what you’re saying. I have a tendency to use big voice too much. Working on that. Your feedback is stellar and much appreciated.
Great breakdown. Love the story.
Here’s my swing and a miss!
https://drewclements.substack.com/p/no-caffeine
Chuck, if you can elaborate on this “Can you replace any of the above sentences with a series of physical actions that will pop next to the somewhat abstract events taking place?”
As I mentioned in a Comment, just now (above), I was looking for a physical moment to help ground the dialog. The phone ringing. An on-the-body sense. Just a verb-heavy sentence that will pop when it's set in the middle of the dialog and internal monologue.
Hope that helps.
Gotcha. Thanks for responding. You’re the man, Professor P.
Hey Erik. I enjoyed this. I was in Vegas a year ago and can picture the story. I would like to read more set in this system.
Just check out my substack. 17 episodes on there. Funny enough, the title isn’t “In the desert” that’s just the first line. The title for this episode is Fremont, but it matters little.
Cool. Will do.
Are you publishing on Substack? I see you posted something here, do you post anywhere else?
Thanks for asking. I've been somewhat hesitant because I don't understand the way rights work in this area and whether this would make the work "published". Some online magazines only want to publish unpublished works. I've also been trying to figure out Amazon with their serial program and whether publishing on substack would preclude that.
Honestly don’t know, brother.
Erik always slams story time! Bravo!
Hiya Chuck! Been loving the recent Gloves Off stories. Your lessons solidify with each post. Had a question too. You said your teacher told you a writer should have a reason for every decision they make in a story. You can take that even further by saying that every word or sentence should have a purpose. But my question was...why does a writer need to have a reason for everything? Is it to equip the writer to talk their work or to explain it?
Hello Joe!
This "having a reason" might sound ponderous, but it's easy once you adjust to writing from the "inside" of a character. Unless you're writing from within the character's experience and associates, you're likely to use "writerly" shortcuts and cliches. What Gordon Lish called "received text." This writerly language robs your story of freshness and makes each project feel like something you're just trying to get done. This rush to get done robs the reader, who's forced to read 800 pages for the small payoff at the end of Modernism.
However, if you attack a story as a series of small, particular choices you're more likely to create the strange, beautiful sentences of Amy Hempel or Mark Richard. Each sentence reads like a little magic, and the reader is constantly rewarded -- instead of forcing the reader to race through 800 pages for a dubious reward.
This summer I'm rereading Clive Cussler's 'Raise the Titanic' just because it's classic Modernism. The book is 500+ pages that lead to a skeleton and some rocks inside a box. Not a great novel, but a great example of "espionage fiction" to lampoon. Now, if I can wed the tropes of Cussler and James Patterson to the beauty of Hempel, I'll have something worthwhile.
My father was always recommending stuff like this to me. The Clive Cussler, Tom Clancy, Dale Brown. I never cared for much of it. I do enjoy reading Michael Crichton for modernism but mainly for the intelligence of the writing.
Hello Chuck,
it is great to have the gloves off series back. Regarding the purpose of the character or his/her reasons for her doings, I struggle somehow with developing a clear motivation(which will make the characters behaviour reasonable as I understood) and building those experiences and associations. Could you give a starting point, or any advice on that? Big thanks in advance.
Really interesting story here - well done, Erik. These two lines really grabbed me:
"You go from getting engaged to getting embalmed in the blink of an eye."
"Dance floors to death rattles, overnight."
As for the feedback, the notes below from Chuck immediately made me think of the Game of Thrones series, which in my view has a dense plot (think of how many characters and families and storylines intersect) AND a unique setting. That could be why a segment of readers bailed on the books - or TV adaptation - because it was simply too much for them to absorb.
"A plot that’s novel and dense will work best in standard, unremarkable settings. While unique settings will work best to ennoble a mundane plot. It’s very tough to make a convoluted plot work in a bizarre setting."
Great fun reading all this - and everyone's comments. Thanks all! Chuck, your idea of setting a weird plot in a standard setting or a simple plot in weird, unusual setting- is akin to something I learned when writing ad copy and headlines (longtime copywriter). If you have a warped headline you want a simple image background... if you have a warped image you want a simple, straightforward headline. Otherwise they will fight each other and the ad (or story) won't bust through.
Good job, Erik.
Thanks, brother.🤝
"System stories" also seem related to the "Institutionalized" genre in the Save the Cat universe: https://savethecat.com/institutionalized
I was first revolted by the cookie-cutter modeling in that book. But working in frameworks does spur a lot of innovation to avoid blatant reference.
Erik, this story is very visual. Reminded me of Pulp Fiction's Winston Wolfe scene quite a bit in a good way. My thought was, what if Kyle was a Title 9 scholarship athlete and the fix was called in by her coach? Could make that character more relatable.
I love that. About the coach, I mean. And I totally see what you’re saying about Pulp Fiction. “You’re sending the wolf? That’s all you had to say…”