Argh, I was flailing in third-person Modernism when I wrote the 800-page turd called "If You Lived Here, You'd Be Home Already." Minimalism showed me how to focus, limit elements, and create tension. Thank God. And Tom Spanbauer.
Do you mind if I ask you a little more about your process, Meagan? This is something I've been trying to get past. I want to adhere to the rules of Minimalism, but find getting off the starting blocks a little tricky.
Based on your writing, it seems like you've found the right balance. I'm guessing you exhaust your first draft without putting too much weight on the rules, and then implement them when revising. Did I get that right?
Hey Shaun! Thanks for asking! So, it changes a little every time, but lately how it’s been going is:
-Chuck gives a prompt; I keep the general idea as a vague little seed in the back of my head.
-Then a character’s voice comes to me. Or maybe several characters' voices. And I start to write down little snippets of what they are saying or things that are happening, sort of working toward one or several of the prompt seeds if possible. If not, oh well.
-Rarely do I get a big chunk of time to sit and write anymore, so it’s little snippets of things—in a notebook, on my phone, on a napkin, on my computer—just as long as I put it down immediately because nine times out of ten I will not remember it later.
-Then there comes a point that I sit down and look at my snippets and see does anything fit together here? So I take all these pukey bits that I’ve written in an unfiltered way, and if there is a common theme or something working, I mish-mash it together.
-Snippets that won’t be used in a certain story I set aside for possible future use elsewhere. (I use Scrivener to help organize this madness.)
A deadline often helps me finish the first draft. Sometimes re-reading Chuck’s essays help. Or reading another author’s essays on writing. Or reading fiction. Or daydreaming. Or thinking about writing. Or light revision, but only as a means to keep progressing. Basically I just try any means necessary not to paralyze myself until the first draft is complete. If I try to write perfectly from the start, it's hard to get past the first sentence.
But…Once I have that first draft, it’s a big relief. Something to work with. I take a look at structure, abstracts, etc, all the things we have learned. Don't get me wrong--I try to write with those lessons in mind from the start, sort of hoping that I’ve read it enough that it has seeped at least a little bit into my subconscious. But ultimately, I go back with a fine-tooth comb and try to improve using the lessons or intuition or both.
After about seven or ten drafts, I can get it to a point that’s readable. Another seven drafts and it’s more polished. Three more passes, then maybe I’ll let a friend or my sister take a look.
But it’s hard to get friends to tell me if they didn’t enjoy. If it takes them a week to read it, that's a hint that the story is no good. But if they read it more quickly, I will ask them to rate 1-10 how boring, how confusing.
If I can get an 8 or better on boringness (meaning not very bored), I can live with it for the time being. If I can get an 8 or better on confusingness (meaning slightly confusing), I will publish it on my substack because I’ve set it up as a sort of test drive, open to feedback. (One story on there is a terrible mess of a draft, and Steve Conway was nice enough to point out that my story didn’t have a clear conflict, which now I will attempt to use in future writing.) Anything less than 8 is in need of serious revision. 8 or better means keep improving, but the story may live to see another day.
First, try not to think of it as cutting. Think about putting less in to begin with. If you limit elements and just keep them present you'll build tension and emotion faster because you won't be introducing new things. Instead, existing places, objects, people will morph to deepen and taken on new meanings.
I thought the recipe bit (Diffuse, blame it on circumstance, create separation, appreciate, and comfort) was a great comic device. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen that before. If I have I guess it didn’t stand out to me as much as yours did. Awesome job!
Chuck, thanks for the advice on object permanence. From now on, while writing, I’ll probably be constantly asking myself: “Okay, how long does the dog have to live now?”
Thanks, Matt! I wanted to keep her obsession with cooking at the forefront even when she's out of the kitchen and wanted to try a new device. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
I've never tried it, because I didn't want to spoil a writer's work. But it seemed like a good experiment here. If people object, I'll avoid doing so in the future.
For me, strikethroughs would be useful! Somehow it helps my brain process what to cut in future revisions. Like, by seeing what a reader would cut, it helps you trust your own intuition on what is ok to cut.
The idea of giving your character the last word which kills tension...fascinates me. Might be guilty of that without even knowing. And with a lot of your concepts, I think I have a vague idea of what you mean but I don't think I can articulate it.
I'm guessing that giving your character the last words sorta feels like that perfect comeback in a segment of tennis match dialogue. And it often seems like it sums things up with a neat bow. Am I close to getting it?
Exactly! As a kid from a huge family, I have to fight the urge to always have the last word. It's a show of dominance, that's why it cuts tension. It shows the character always fighting back.
My preference is to keep the cat in peril for as long as possible, then save/abandon it at the last possible moment. We just need to see a character love SOMETHING in order to be lovable. Something alive, not a diamond tiara.
Thanks, Maegan! Chuck makes it very easy for me to ask these follow-up questions. Sometimes he just tags on these gems almost like an afterthought and I'm like...I wanna know more!
I like your narrator’s voice. Got me right away with some relatable thoughts (i.e.) I would love to “marathon-sleep till Tuesday.” Ha! I
Other lovable bits:
-“the sound of her acrylic nails jackhammering away on the ol’ QWERTY”
-“…is here for a limited time only, like a selection from the goddamn Disney vault.”
-“[Brenda]…always looks moisturized…”
All these hospital happenings. Very interesting subject matter. I know this is part of something bigger. I’m quite intrigued and would read more.
Chuck—love the little bit of striking lines to show what we can afford to cut in a story. The explanation of how going past a certain point with a narrators thoughts losing the tension, this stuff is really useful for me. As are all explanations of how to keep tension in a story.
Love how you are showing how to take the concept/paragraph and edit it with things like “submerging the I” which can have a big (positive) effect on the delivery. Same content, more powerful delivery. And the reminders about not filtering and avoiding pejorative language. So much to learn from in this piece, Desiree!
Other MVI (Most valuable information):
-“In Minimalism, once an object is introduced it must be morphed and kept present throughout the scene and story.”
-“An action always works better than a line of dialog”
Hammer it in for us, Chuck!!
Finally, Desiree, I am Very curious about this puppy as well…Chuck raises a good point about when you make a promise to the reader...
Thanks so much, Maegan! I'm 100 pages deep so that's super encouraging. The submerging the "I" and pejorative language notes were much needed because it's a recurring issue throughout the other chapters too. The puppy was honestly never gonna come up again but that has changed after reading this feedback! (I, too, would love a good marathon-sleep!)
Consider that you can never revisit the puppy, until you put it at the end as a feel-good Easter egg. Think of the poodle leaving with the saved girl at the end of "Silence of the Lambs" or the Pomeranian that leaves with the hit man killer at the end of "To Die For." Funny, that parallel: victim gets killer's dog vs. killer gets victim's dog. In each case, it puts a final button on the narrative.
So the dog can be a clock -- only ?? hours left to live -- and then gets saved in the last moment. Like the coma baby in "Bright Lights, Big City."
My point is, the dog need not be a major dynamic, just a tacked-on one.
My point is also: You subconsciously create set-ups. We all do. When you get stuck, go back and look for the set-ups your wiser self planted.
Just got my two books, The Collected Stories of Amy Hempel and Make Something Up. When I opened the brown Amazon mailer, Make Something Up was in a clear plastic baggie. So it looked extra special. But I took it out and replaced it with Amy's book.
The scene itself was really interesting. Having been in a fair few hospitals, I really understood the feeling of little cloistered moments, the nod nod nod of addicts not being addicted, and I love how self-knowing the narrator is.
Chuck, I can't tell you how much it means to me that my favorite author—the reason I even wanted to write a novel in the first place—not only read my work, but also offered such insightful and actionable feedback (which I can't wait to address!). Attributions have been so challenging for me and the suggestions you shared really helped me get a handle on how to bake those in. I can't wait to pepper in more Fido with the haunted eyes, Mr. Jones, and wig stuff. (Keeping those horses present!) Also eager to curb the judgments and submerge allllll of the "I's" peppered throughout the other chapters too. Eternally grateful and even more excited to drive up from LA to check out Study Hall in July!
Hey, would you like the portrait sitting with Allan Amato? You're in L.A.. It could be your headshot for the book. Let me know. He'll make you look amazing. He does lots of movie star portraits.
Hello Desiree. I've just now heard from Allan, and he's dying to meet with you. Can you send Dennis at The Cult a phone # or email, and I'll get you Allan's contact information. Thanks.
I'm sorry, but I can't hold onto this until morning, even though it's like 3:15 AM. Just got done reading Knock-Knock and I'm like...going slightly insane over here. Think I need psychiatric help because I forgot how masterful you've crafted this. How you weave previous elements into new parts and you repeat. It's..kinda like magic. Like the Polack gun blast joke with the POW. And the part about the Mickey Finn. And the violin part. Then you even combine the polack blast with the custard pie in the face bit!
You're like a DJ.
You burned the language with "prostrate cancer" and "multiple-cation" and "Emily Dickerson."
And it ends on a dental, "Radio not..."
Dude...I wanna learn how to do this so freakin bad.
Exactly. I use the DJ metaphor in the book "Consider This." It's about always keeping the same beat but varying the textures and escalating the intensity.
The "Pow" was great because it allowed me to shout during the reading. A verbal act of violence. And the whole mess is based on the farm town barber shop where my dad took us as kids. So even stylized, a story can vent your deepest crap.
A joke seems like the smallest story unit I can imagine. So I took all the jokes I learned in second grade but wouldn't understand for another ten years or more. Add the fact that someone I loved was teaching me ways to hate = big pathos.
Especially enjoyed the jokes in the story. In the book "Making Shapely Fiction" by Jerome Stern, I remember reading about how good fiction is full of good fiction. I'm quoting him. "Characters remember through stories. They characterize the teller, advance the plot, and introduce ideas. But most important, they enliven the texture of the entire narrative." And I think the jokes in Knock Knock do that.
This is an excellent feedback. And the format is also great. It ties for me what I read in "Consider This" with case studies and lessons like this for my own practice.
My addition to the book chapter: I didn't even notice the puppy, the thing that stuck in my mind was janitor's breakfast. I think you did well with picking up on odd sensory details the same way like when you are hangoverm. But as Chuck said, if you could make them repeat, it would add more tension, but I think it could also add intensity to the headache and the overall drowsy state. Kind of mimicking the beat of the language to the inner state of the character.
Sorry, damn it. I've been typing away and forgot to announce Study Hall. Well, I'm here, and it ends in fourteen minutes.
Argh, I was flailing in third-person Modernism when I wrote the 800-page turd called "If You Lived Here, You'd Be Home Already." Minimalism showed me how to focus, limit elements, and create tension. Thank God. And Tom Spanbauer.
Puke out all your thoughts without restriction and then revise in Minimalism mode?
I really love reading your thought processes. I think I've got similar anxieties but lack the brainpower to voice them.
Do you mind if I ask you a little more about your process, Meagan? This is something I've been trying to get past. I want to adhere to the rules of Minimalism, but find getting off the starting blocks a little tricky.
Based on your writing, it seems like you've found the right balance. I'm guessing you exhaust your first draft without putting too much weight on the rules, and then implement them when revising. Did I get that right?
Hey Shaun! Thanks for asking! So, it changes a little every time, but lately how it’s been going is:
-Chuck gives a prompt; I keep the general idea as a vague little seed in the back of my head.
-Then a character’s voice comes to me. Or maybe several characters' voices. And I start to write down little snippets of what they are saying or things that are happening, sort of working toward one or several of the prompt seeds if possible. If not, oh well.
-Rarely do I get a big chunk of time to sit and write anymore, so it’s little snippets of things—in a notebook, on my phone, on a napkin, on my computer—just as long as I put it down immediately because nine times out of ten I will not remember it later.
-Then there comes a point that I sit down and look at my snippets and see does anything fit together here? So I take all these pukey bits that I’ve written in an unfiltered way, and if there is a common theme or something working, I mish-mash it together.
-Snippets that won’t be used in a certain story I set aside for possible future use elsewhere. (I use Scrivener to help organize this madness.)
A deadline often helps me finish the first draft. Sometimes re-reading Chuck’s essays help. Or reading another author’s essays on writing. Or reading fiction. Or daydreaming. Or thinking about writing. Or light revision, but only as a means to keep progressing. Basically I just try any means necessary not to paralyze myself until the first draft is complete. If I try to write perfectly from the start, it's hard to get past the first sentence.
But…Once I have that first draft, it’s a big relief. Something to work with. I take a look at structure, abstracts, etc, all the things we have learned. Don't get me wrong--I try to write with those lessons in mind from the start, sort of hoping that I’ve read it enough that it has seeped at least a little bit into my subconscious. But ultimately, I go back with a fine-tooth comb and try to improve using the lessons or intuition or both.
After about seven or ten drafts, I can get it to a point that’s readable. Another seven drafts and it’s more polished. Three more passes, then maybe I’ll let a friend or my sister take a look.
But it’s hard to get friends to tell me if they didn’t enjoy. If it takes them a week to read it, that's a hint that the story is no good. But if they read it more quickly, I will ask them to rate 1-10 how boring, how confusing.
If I can get an 8 or better on boringness (meaning not very bored), I can live with it for the time being. If I can get an 8 or better on confusingness (meaning slightly confusing), I will publish it on my substack because I’ve set it up as a sort of test drive, open to feedback. (One story on there is a terrible mess of a draft, and Steve Conway was nice enough to point out that my story didn’t have a clear conflict, which now I will attempt to use in future writing.) Anything less than 8 is in need of serious revision. 8 or better means keep improving, but the story may live to see another day.
Hope this wasn’t too long winded!!!!
First, try not to think of it as cutting. Think about putting less in to begin with. If you limit elements and just keep them present you'll build tension and emotion faster because you won't be introducing new things. Instead, existing places, objects, people will morph to deepen and taken on new meanings.
Thanks for sharing Desiree.
I thought the recipe bit (Diffuse, blame it on circumstance, create separation, appreciate, and comfort) was a great comic device. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen that before. If I have I guess it didn’t stand out to me as much as yours did. Awesome job!
Chuck, thanks for the advice on object permanence. From now on, while writing, I’ll probably be constantly asking myself: “Okay, how long does the dog have to live now?”
Thanks, Matt! I wanted to keep her obsession with cooking at the forefront even when she's out of the kitchen and wanted to try a new device. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
Oh wow, you CAN do strikethroughs on Substack. And you're even using it on things that could be cut. Nice!
You genius you.
I've never tried it, because I didn't want to spoil a writer's work. But it seemed like a good experiment here. If people object, I'll avoid doing so in the future.
For me, strikethroughs would be useful! Somehow it helps my brain process what to cut in future revisions. Like, by seeing what a reader would cut, it helps you trust your own intuition on what is ok to cut.
I thought it was useful!
Thank you. I look forward to reading your whole novel someday.
The idea of giving your character the last word which kills tension...fascinates me. Might be guilty of that without even knowing. And with a lot of your concepts, I think I have a vague idea of what you mean but I don't think I can articulate it.
I'm guessing that giving your character the last words sorta feels like that perfect comeback in a segment of tennis match dialogue. And it often seems like it sums things up with a neat bow. Am I close to getting it?
Exactly! As a kid from a huge family, I have to fight the urge to always have the last word. It's a show of dominance, that's why it cuts tension. It shows the character always fighting back.
Is having a character/narrator have the last word a good way of making them look like a bit of a dick?
It can run a spectrum from "dick" to "good natured push-back" but it negates tension. If you want to build tension, don't have the last word.
Try it in real life. Just let others have the last word. It fills you with tension, and often makes them feel awkward also.
When you say "unless your character loves something or saves something, we won't love her."
Are you referring to the save-the-cat moment? How characters need a save-the-cat type moment early on to be endearing to the reader.
My preference is to keep the cat in peril for as long as possible, then save/abandon it at the last possible moment. We just need to see a character love SOMETHING in order to be lovable. Something alive, not a diamond tiara.
Joseph, I love how you are always asking these clarifying questions.
Thanks, Maegan! Chuck makes it very easy for me to ask these follow-up questions. Sometimes he just tags on these gems almost like an afterthought and I'm like...I wanna know more!
Hi Desiree!
Thanks for sharing your story with us.
I like your narrator’s voice. Got me right away with some relatable thoughts (i.e.) I would love to “marathon-sleep till Tuesday.” Ha! I
Other lovable bits:
-“the sound of her acrylic nails jackhammering away on the ol’ QWERTY”
-“…is here for a limited time only, like a selection from the goddamn Disney vault.”
-“[Brenda]…always looks moisturized…”
All these hospital happenings. Very interesting subject matter. I know this is part of something bigger. I’m quite intrigued and would read more.
Chuck—love the little bit of striking lines to show what we can afford to cut in a story. The explanation of how going past a certain point with a narrators thoughts losing the tension, this stuff is really useful for me. As are all explanations of how to keep tension in a story.
Love how you are showing how to take the concept/paragraph and edit it with things like “submerging the I” which can have a big (positive) effect on the delivery. Same content, more powerful delivery. And the reminders about not filtering and avoiding pejorative language. So much to learn from in this piece, Desiree!
Other MVI (Most valuable information):
-“In Minimalism, once an object is introduced it must be morphed and kept present throughout the scene and story.”
-“An action always works better than a line of dialog”
Hammer it in for us, Chuck!!
Finally, Desiree, I am Very curious about this puppy as well…Chuck raises a good point about when you make a promise to the reader...
Nice work, and thank you again for sharing!!
You write the best comments for Gloves Off. They are full of energy and a joy to read!
Thank you. I’m very passionate about writing! As I can tell you and others on here are too. 😄
I wish I could get paid to read and write and read and write and read and read and write all day every day until the day I die!!! Haha!
I can tell by the sheer amount of exclamation points you use in your comments, the amount of passion you have lol
My level of passion = !!!!!!!
Maegan's level of passion = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣
Let it be stated that I refrain from ending sentences in exclamation points in business emails...
That's probably for the best!
Thanks so much, Maegan! I'm 100 pages deep so that's super encouraging. The submerging the "I" and pejorative language notes were much needed because it's a recurring issue throughout the other chapters too. The puppy was honestly never gonna come up again but that has changed after reading this feedback! (I, too, would love a good marathon-sleep!)
Consider that you can never revisit the puppy, until you put it at the end as a feel-good Easter egg. Think of the poodle leaving with the saved girl at the end of "Silence of the Lambs" or the Pomeranian that leaves with the hit man killer at the end of "To Die For." Funny, that parallel: victim gets killer's dog vs. killer gets victim's dog. In each case, it puts a final button on the narrative.
So the dog can be a clock -- only ?? hours left to live -- and then gets saved in the last moment. Like the coma baby in "Bright Lights, Big City."
My point is, the dog need not be a major dynamic, just a tacked-on one.
My point is also: You subconsciously create set-ups. We all do. When you get stuck, go back and look for the set-ups your wiser self planted.
Just got my two books, The Collected Stories of Amy Hempel and Make Something Up. When I opened the brown Amazon mailer, Make Something Up was in a clear plastic baggie. So it looked extra special. But I took it out and replaced it with Amy's book.
How do you feel about this move?
Offended...or honored?
lol
These Gloves Off bits are so good.
The scene itself was really interesting. Having been in a fair few hospitals, I really understood the feeling of little cloistered moments, the nod nod nod of addicts not being addicted, and I love how self-knowing the narrator is.
Excellent stuff, I really enjoyed it.
Chuck, I can't tell you how much it means to me that my favorite author—the reason I even wanted to write a novel in the first place—not only read my work, but also offered such insightful and actionable feedback (which I can't wait to address!). Attributions have been so challenging for me and the suggestions you shared really helped me get a handle on how to bake those in. I can't wait to pepper in more Fido with the haunted eyes, Mr. Jones, and wig stuff. (Keeping those horses present!) Also eager to curb the judgments and submerge allllll of the "I's" peppered throughout the other chapters too. Eternally grateful and even more excited to drive up from LA to check out Study Hall in July!
Hey, would you like the portrait sitting with Allan Amato? You're in L.A.. It could be your headshot for the book. Let me know. He'll make you look amazing. He does lots of movie star portraits.
Yes!! That would be so awesome. Thank you, Chuck!!
I will email Allan right now and ask about details.
Done. I should have information to pass along soon. You'll have a blast and have photos to treasure.
I'm looking forward to it. Thank you so much!
Hello Desiree. I've just now heard from Allan, and he's dying to meet with you. Can you send Dennis at The Cult a phone # or email, and I'll get you Allan's contact information. Thanks.
Just sent Dennis my contact info. Excited to connect with Allan. Thanks again for this opportunity!
Hi Chuck. I haven't heard from Allan yet. Can you ask Dennis if he received my contact info? I submitted it through the contact us page on The Cult.
I'm sorry, but I can't hold onto this until morning, even though it's like 3:15 AM. Just got done reading Knock-Knock and I'm like...going slightly insane over here. Think I need psychiatric help because I forgot how masterful you've crafted this. How you weave previous elements into new parts and you repeat. It's..kinda like magic. Like the Polack gun blast joke with the POW. And the part about the Mickey Finn. And the violin part. Then you even combine the polack blast with the custard pie in the face bit!
You're like a DJ.
You burned the language with "prostrate cancer" and "multiple-cation" and "Emily Dickerson."
And it ends on a dental, "Radio not..."
Dude...I wanna learn how to do this so freakin bad.
Exactly. I use the DJ metaphor in the book "Consider This." It's about always keeping the same beat but varying the textures and escalating the intensity.
The "Pow" was great because it allowed me to shout during the reading. A verbal act of violence. And the whole mess is based on the farm town barber shop where my dad took us as kids. So even stylized, a story can vent your deepest crap.
A joke seems like the smallest story unit I can imagine. So I took all the jokes I learned in second grade but wouldn't understand for another ten years or more. Add the fact that someone I loved was teaching me ways to hate = big pathos.
Especially enjoyed the jokes in the story. In the book "Making Shapely Fiction" by Jerome Stern, I remember reading about how good fiction is full of good fiction. I'm quoting him. "Characters remember through stories. They characterize the teller, advance the plot, and introduce ideas. But most important, they enliven the texture of the entire narrative." And I think the jokes in Knock Knock do that.
"Consider This" is where I originally got the DJ metaphor too lol
Joseph, I had the same reaction when I read Knock-Knock. It’s really amazing.
This is an excellent feedback. And the format is also great. It ties for me what I read in "Consider This" with case studies and lessons like this for my own practice.
My addition to the book chapter: I didn't even notice the puppy, the thing that stuck in my mind was janitor's breakfast. I think you did well with picking up on odd sensory details the same way like when you are hangoverm. But as Chuck said, if you could make them repeat, it would add more tension, but I think it could also add intensity to the headache and the overall drowsy state. Kind of mimicking the beat of the language to the inner state of the character.
Thanks for sharing