Remember that time during a Dead Headspace interview when you said, "...privatized public spaces." That was gold. Maybe you can remix it. The first rule of privatized public spaces...
Good, weird story -- I liked the meth references. Added to the atmosphere a bit. And I was feeling rather proud of myself for also thinking of The Lottery as I read this.
Chuck - terminology question. You've mentioned to avoid abstract measurements of time or distance, and I like that advice a lot. But the word 'abstract' throws me off. Wouldn't 10 minutes or 6'5" tall be concrete measurements, and descriptive measurements (three songs, had to duck under the doorframe) be abstract? I'm not arguing (I know better than that), but the terminology confused me a bit. You've probably explained this many times before I got here.
No problem. When I was small and we'd visit relatives, us kids would get bored and whine to leave. My mother would say, "After I finish this cigarette" or "When I'm done with this cup of coffee." So my siblings and I measured time in cigarettes and coffee.
On the most important level, a writer is looking for the specific way a character measures and judges the world. A pre-science level. I think Gordon Lish referred to the "imitative fallacy" which is the idea that all people interpret 100-degree days and six-foot-tall women in the same way. It's a fallacy because we don't, we all experience such things differently.
When a character describes the world she's really describing herself, her experience, and how the world occurs for her. If you use a shortcut such as ten minutes you miss the opportunity to get inside a character's perception. Sure, you can use abstracts, but I want you to always be aware of a more effective option.
Thanks. I completely agree and try to do that, but I'm sure they've slipped in. Discussions like this help take things that "I know," but move them to the forefront when I'm writing until it becomes more ingrained habit. And I still measure time in coffee and cigarettes.
It was the term 'abstract' that was throwing me off. "Ten minutes" feels concrete, not abstract. "One more cigarette" feels abstract (in the way my brain was interpreting the terms).
Agreed. In the real world, I don't look at some tall guy and think, "Wow, he's 6'5"." I just think "he's tall" and put in relationship to something more familiar than a tape measure. Like, He's a good six inches taller than me. Or "I bet he can reach that item on the top shelf."
I have the same issue when writers use brand names to describe their characters (he wore Ferragamo loafers), unless it's done for some specific effect. But I wouldn't know a Ferragamo shoe if it kicked me in the ass, so that means nothing to me. "His shoes probably cost more than my car." That I could relate to. ;)
Does anyone who hasn't shared yet feel pressure building the more Gloves Off critiques they read? I have the burden of all this knowledge. But when I do submit, (and I will), it'll be better.
Relax. No pressure intended. I just want you to be aware of some ideas. You'll begin to see the world around you in more particularized ways, and to become aware of your more basic self -- how do you measure time? Height? Distance? Apply those new measurements to your characters.
Chuck, that is like one of the hardest things you talk about in your book. Writing from within the POV. Like if there was a really tall guy, I'd probably say he looked like he could play center for the Knicks. Or...he'd ducks under every door frame.
Personally, I don't even know how to measure time without a clock! Time just goes by these days, like fine sand sifting through my fingers lol
That might take a little longer for me to assimilate but I will watch out for it. But hey, look at this. In one story I'm working on, two characters a filling up a garbage bag with old stuff and I thought...this bag could be a good potential object. It might be able to even measure time? It's empty, half-full, full. But I know it can definitely be an object that changes. It can kinda be like that bag of petey's cat food. Gosh, that is such a good story.
In a writing reference book, Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver, he said the less you care, the better you write. Usually when I'm writing comments and questions and other silly shit on your Substack, I feel totally free. Each post feels like finding a random 20 dollar bill in your pants every time you do laundry.
But when I get to the page to do my "real" writing, my brain switches to serious mode. Gotta get the lines just right and it feels like I'm constantly walking a tightrope while constipated. How can I transfer how I feel here, fun and free, to my actual writing? Do you know of any ways to make me care less?
Months ago, I think.. Chuck shared a collection of poems read by Tom Hiddleston. 30 minutes long video, one poem in particular "Wild Geese" by Mary Oliver might answer your question, Joseph. It's so powerful, it freed me to just write, not caring at all about 'writing great'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9PRwVVqqH0&ab_channel=ZsuzsannaUhlik
For me, I love to write longhand while watching music videos -- old ones. The cheesey, DIY quality of an old Erasure video prompts me to experiment with repetition and rhythm, and frees me from being "writerly." The more my work sounds like a New Order song the more I like it.
Do you watch old music videos from MTV? I think you said that people criticized MTV because they were altering people's minds with their fast, ever-changing images and stuff. Motion.
I've been testing things with music. I love nature sounds. Rain and thunder, sound of waves. My favorite video game is Elder Scrolls: Skyrim and on YouTube, they have these 10 hour videos of the tavern music. But I find that this peaceful stuff might be too relaxing. It's lulling me in a state of comfort. Maybe I can find some ASMR type stuff, where people eat really close to the mic. Loud crunch sounds. Mukbang type videos.
Writing longhand, I watch the old videos. They're fast-cut, but they still have to be organized to make sense. It's that quick, organized chaos that frees up my creativity. When I go to keyboard my scribbles I listen to the exact same rain/thunder/ocean wave videos on YouTube that you mentioned.
Thank you for sharing "Man Today" with us. What a horrible story!! (I mean this as a compliment. Hehe.) Really though, the plot is so tragic, and I can really see this story amping up even more if you consider using some of Chuck's suggestions about hiding the mission by using the birthday euphemisms at the beginning of the story.
And the way you present the birthday`--like you had in there, "...he woke up with lit candles in his face." The "in his face" part reads as he's not excited about his birthday. So if I didn't know up front the reason he was not excited, it would create even more tension in your story; my curiosity about why this eleven-year-old was not looking forward to his birthday would keep me reading.
I also like how you bring up that Jacob had been playing with a remote control car the night before. It's a good way to show how he's still a kid, no matter how many birthday candles are on his cake.
Nice work, Cody. Looking forward to your revisions!!!
Chuck, a question about head-hopping and minimalism. I know it can be tricky to pull off, but say you wanted to tell a story from three different characters' points of views. And to do this, you give each character his/her own section so it is clear whose head/POV we are in (Is this technically head-hopping or is it something different?) Is this structure--the three different POVs clearly separated for example--a no-no for minimalism, period? Or is it just the head-hopping within sections (POVs jumping from one paragraph to the next or one line to the next) that is not allowed in minimalism?
You got it. A space break or some clear signal is needed before you shift POV. Sure, you can use a rotating "Roshomon" point of view, but you have to create a transitional device. Think of the newsreel reporters in "Citizen Kane." They have no faces, and as non-characters they merely signal that we're shifting to a new POV. For example, "I'm going down to Atlantic City to interview the second Mrs. Kane..." The reporters are a non-fiction device that imbues the film with reality (journalism!) while telling the audience who's-who so we don't get lost between versions of the life story.
The reporters also create a "quest" story and create a "clock" when the film editor says, "Hold this newsreel up for a week! Two weeks if you have to!" and thus give us a greater sense of urgency.
Hey Chuck, mind settling something for me? I had a class today and the lecturer was talking about the post-modern and brought up ‘Fight Club’ (the film) as an example -- the part in which Edward Norton/The Narrator scrunches up his fist before he hits himself. He said that this is Tyler taking control, or at the very least, it’s ambiguous. I disagree and as I believe it’s not Tyler, but instead, its the Narrator psyching himself up for what he’s about to do. If the fist scrunching up was Tyler, would this not be a pretty big wtf moment for The Narrator? Would he not be like, “why the hell is my hand acting of its own accord?”. Could you clear this up?
Alas, I’m from the UK -- the uni fees are relatively cheaper here but it rains constantly and British “cuisine” is something straight out of a Cronenberg movie.
Ah man, the juxtaposition between boy and man is great; so much peer pressure throughout. I like the notes to tie the beginning and end with smoke though - the life being the light. Another excellent story. Damn.
Chuck, I've noticed that you censor your profanity. Is there a reason for that? You are a gentlemen in the streets but a freak on the sheets (of notebook paper).
At Freightliner Trucks the word f-ck was the go-to noun, verb, adjective. To fit in I adopted the talk, and years later had to shed that habit when I found myself on radio or television, after the FCC began to levy six-figure fines for on-air profanity.
Beyond that I found profanity stale. It was a shortcut similar to abstract measurements or adverbs or dictating emotion. Unless I rid myself of that crutch -- profanity -- I'd never develop other methods to manipulate the reader.
My usual stance on profanity in writing was to simply not overdo it. It'll lose its power. I could probably write without cursing but...that isn't how I speak. My life isn't all that squeaky clean. Only when I'm gaming and losing terribly, do I curse. But everywhere else, I don't. My dad would whoop me as a kid if I cursed. So it's not really a strong habit for me.
Are you saying that there are better ways of manipulating the reader than to use the word fuck or shit or every other colorful word at our disposable?
The image of an eleven year old kid shooting a piss drenched man is going to stick with me for at least the rest of the week. Great scene.
I agree that hiding the fact that Jacob has to kill someone today until the end would greatly increase the tension. It would lead the reader from a world they think Jacob lives in into the world he actually lives in. This, I think, would better emphasize this great dichotomy you show between innocence and the loss of it. You’d be bringing the reader into the world instead of dropping them right in it.
Thank you so much, Chuck. If I were half as great a writer as you I’d Maybe be able to express properly the Honor I feel. Not only did you take the time to read my story, but you gave Amazing feedback. Truly appreciate it. And Thank you to everyone else who read my story, I appreciate all of you.
Tell me, in what other Substack are you gonna find gems such as: Unpack the piss for more tension and can you put us inside Jacob's body?
Nowhere.
This is why I'm here.
Oh, the things that come out of my mouth...
Remember that time during a Dead Headspace interview when you said, "...privatized public spaces." That was gold. Maybe you can remix it. The first rule of privatized public spaces...
Good, weird story -- I liked the meth references. Added to the atmosphere a bit. And I was feeling rather proud of myself for also thinking of The Lottery as I read this.
Chuck - terminology question. You've mentioned to avoid abstract measurements of time or distance, and I like that advice a lot. But the word 'abstract' throws me off. Wouldn't 10 minutes or 6'5" tall be concrete measurements, and descriptive measurements (three songs, had to duck under the doorframe) be abstract? I'm not arguing (I know better than that), but the terminology confused me a bit. You've probably explained this many times before I got here.
Okay, that makes sense.
I'm sure you did like the meth references. Your teeth were just itching for more.
No problem. When I was small and we'd visit relatives, us kids would get bored and whine to leave. My mother would say, "After I finish this cigarette" or "When I'm done with this cup of coffee." So my siblings and I measured time in cigarettes and coffee.
On the most important level, a writer is looking for the specific way a character measures and judges the world. A pre-science level. I think Gordon Lish referred to the "imitative fallacy" which is the idea that all people interpret 100-degree days and six-foot-tall women in the same way. It's a fallacy because we don't, we all experience such things differently.
When a character describes the world she's really describing herself, her experience, and how the world occurs for her. If you use a shortcut such as ten minutes you miss the opportunity to get inside a character's perception. Sure, you can use abstracts, but I want you to always be aware of a more effective option.
Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V into "Advice from Chuck" file.
Also, I live under a rock. What Lish should I start with?
Look at "Dear Mr. Capote" but also look at the very Lish-edited work of Amy Hempel and Raymond Carver.
Thanks. I completely agree and try to do that, but I'm sure they've slipped in. Discussions like this help take things that "I know," but move them to the forefront when I'm writing until it becomes more ingrained habit. And I still measure time in coffee and cigarettes.
It was the term 'abstract' that was throwing me off. "Ten minutes" feels concrete, not abstract. "One more cigarette" feels abstract (in the way my brain was interpreting the terms).
Agreed. In the real world, I don't look at some tall guy and think, "Wow, he's 6'5"." I just think "he's tall" and put in relationship to something more familiar than a tape measure. Like, He's a good six inches taller than me. Or "I bet he can reach that item on the top shelf."
I have the same issue when writers use brand names to describe their characters (he wore Ferragamo loafers), unless it's done for some specific effect. But I wouldn't know a Ferragamo shoe if it kicked me in the ass, so that means nothing to me. "His shoes probably cost more than my car." That I could relate to. ;)
Yeah, I thought of that one as I wrote. That’s one where it was done for specific effect, as opposed to just trying to describe a character.
It's not a bad thing but since i'm aware of all these advices there are many books i close after a few pages.
Ditto on The Lottery! For a brief moment I felt as if I might know what I'm doing. It passed.
Does anyone who hasn't shared yet feel pressure building the more Gloves Off critiques they read? I have the burden of all this knowledge. But when I do submit, (and I will), it'll be better.
Relax. No pressure intended. I just want you to be aware of some ideas. You'll begin to see the world around you in more particularized ways, and to become aware of your more basic self -- how do you measure time? Height? Distance? Apply those new measurements to your characters.
How often do we measure distance or time in red traffic lights?
These time mesures are really great fun to find. " I could have come twice before that red light turned green."
Editing stories might be my favorite part of writing. The more advices you give us the more fun it is.
Chuck, that is like one of the hardest things you talk about in your book. Writing from within the POV. Like if there was a really tall guy, I'd probably say he looked like he could play center for the Knicks. Or...he'd ducks under every door frame.
Personally, I don't even know how to measure time without a clock! Time just goes by these days, like fine sand sifting through my fingers lol
But I like the use of songs to measure time.
Just keep the idea in your head. It's like the "plate of shrimp" phenomenon: once you're aware of it you'll start to see it in the world.
That might take a little longer for me to assimilate but I will watch out for it. But hey, look at this. In one story I'm working on, two characters a filling up a garbage bag with old stuff and I thought...this bag could be a good potential object. It might be able to even measure time? It's empty, half-full, full. But I know it can definitely be an object that changes. It can kinda be like that bag of petey's cat food. Gosh, that is such a good story.
Say...whatever happened to...
Wait, I don't think I wanna know.
Something tells me the cat food is gone.
THAT was sixteen years ago.
you mean like when you break your arm and wear a cast and you see people with casts everywhere?
Yup.
My main concern is that i translated my short story poorly. (If anyone could have a peak and let me know if it's ok, it'd be cool.)
https://davidumbert.substack.com/p/no-one-will-ever-separate-us
Hey Chuck, got a question about Gloves Off. If I send you the first 1000 words of a 3000 word story, would that still be eligible?
Sure, but I'd rather see all 3000 words. Let me know when you post it to the latest Tell Me a Story, and I will make it my next.
Can I call shotgun on next-next? I’ll name my first born after you -- yes, even if they’re female.
Argh, I'm trying to gender balance boy-girl-boy-girl, here.
Brandan is tampering with powerful, unknown forces here. Messing with the gender balance time continual.
I’ll take the precious gender balance time continual in my nail polished claw and cast it to the harsh winds as though it were ash.
If Thanos was smart, he would have done that.
Did you just assume my gender???!!!
C A N C E L L E D
From your lips to God's ears. (i love saying old people shit)
Have i told you i was hermaphrodite ?
Braggart.
Do you use semicolons? Vonnegut is asking.
I will definitely notify you. You know I can hardly shut up haha
In a writing reference book, Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver, he said the less you care, the better you write. Usually when I'm writing comments and questions and other silly shit on your Substack, I feel totally free. Each post feels like finding a random 20 dollar bill in your pants every time you do laundry.
But when I get to the page to do my "real" writing, my brain switches to serious mode. Gotta get the lines just right and it feels like I'm constantly walking a tightrope while constipated. How can I transfer how I feel here, fun and free, to my actual writing? Do you know of any ways to make me care less?
Months ago, I think.. Chuck shared a collection of poems read by Tom Hiddleston. 30 minutes long video, one poem in particular "Wild Geese" by Mary Oliver might answer your question, Joseph. It's so powerful, it freed me to just write, not caring at all about 'writing great'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9PRwVVqqH0&ab_channel=ZsuzsannaUhlik
I hope it helps.
For me, I love to write longhand while watching music videos -- old ones. The cheesey, DIY quality of an old Erasure video prompts me to experiment with repetition and rhythm, and frees me from being "writerly." The more my work sounds like a New Order song the more I like it.
Do you watch old music videos from MTV? I think you said that people criticized MTV because they were altering people's minds with their fast, ever-changing images and stuff. Motion.
I've been testing things with music. I love nature sounds. Rain and thunder, sound of waves. My favorite video game is Elder Scrolls: Skyrim and on YouTube, they have these 10 hour videos of the tavern music. But I find that this peaceful stuff might be too relaxing. It's lulling me in a state of comfort. Maybe I can find some ASMR type stuff, where people eat really close to the mic. Loud crunch sounds. Mukbang type videos.
I get chills with that stuff.
Writing longhand, I watch the old videos. They're fast-cut, but they still have to be organized to make sense. It's that quick, organized chaos that frees up my creativity. When I go to keyboard my scribbles I listen to the exact same rain/thunder/ocean wave videos on YouTube that you mentioned.
Hi Cody!
Thank you for sharing "Man Today" with us. What a horrible story!! (I mean this as a compliment. Hehe.) Really though, the plot is so tragic, and I can really see this story amping up even more if you consider using some of Chuck's suggestions about hiding the mission by using the birthday euphemisms at the beginning of the story.
And the way you present the birthday`--like you had in there, "...he woke up with lit candles in his face." The "in his face" part reads as he's not excited about his birthday. So if I didn't know up front the reason he was not excited, it would create even more tension in your story; my curiosity about why this eleven-year-old was not looking forward to his birthday would keep me reading.
I also like how you bring up that Jacob had been playing with a remote control car the night before. It's a good way to show how he's still a kid, no matter how many birthday candles are on his cake.
Nice work, Cody. Looking forward to your revisions!!!
Chuck, a question about head-hopping and minimalism. I know it can be tricky to pull off, but say you wanted to tell a story from three different characters' points of views. And to do this, you give each character his/her own section so it is clear whose head/POV we are in (Is this technically head-hopping or is it something different?) Is this structure--the three different POVs clearly separated for example--a no-no for minimalism, period? Or is it just the head-hopping within sections (POVs jumping from one paragraph to the next or one line to the next) that is not allowed in minimalism?
You got it. A space break or some clear signal is needed before you shift POV. Sure, you can use a rotating "Roshomon" point of view, but you have to create a transitional device. Think of the newsreel reporters in "Citizen Kane." They have no faces, and as non-characters they merely signal that we're shifting to a new POV. For example, "I'm going down to Atlantic City to interview the second Mrs. Kane..." The reporters are a non-fiction device that imbues the film with reality (journalism!) while telling the audience who's-who so we don't get lost between versions of the life story.
The reporters also create a "quest" story and create a "clock" when the film editor says, "Hold this newsreel up for a week! Two weeks if you have to!" and thus give us a greater sense of urgency.
'Rant' has that feel as well. I just used the interviewer/reporter technique in a novel. I think it worked.
"Interview with a Vampire" the reporter/subject format is a classic.
Oh yeah. Forgot about that one.
Note, "Sunset Boulevard" also begins/ends bracketed by newsreel photographers who add gravity and reality to the surreal story.
Hey Chuck, mind settling something for me? I had a class today and the lecturer was talking about the post-modern and brought up ‘Fight Club’ (the film) as an example -- the part in which Edward Norton/The Narrator scrunches up his fist before he hits himself. He said that this is Tyler taking control, or at the very least, it’s ambiguous. I disagree and as I believe it’s not Tyler, but instead, its the Narrator psyching himself up for what he’s about to do. If the fist scrunching up was Tyler, would this not be a pretty big wtf moment for The Narrator? Would he not be like, “why the hell is my hand acting of its own accord?”. Could you clear this up?
Sorry, I never want to explain a story. Besides, that was Fincher's moment, not mine.
Can you give me Fincher’s number? I need to get to the bottom of this so that I can send the lecturer a message under the subject name “Checkmate”.
Dominate much?
University has stolen my will to live and replaced it with debt. Let me have this, man.
Welcome to life.
I want a refund (preferably in Ben & Jerry gift cards if that’s an option).
That's such a shame that you got to pay for going to university in the US.
Yeah, well, you have to figure out that metric thing. Good luck with that.
Alas, I’m from the UK -- the uni fees are relatively cheaper here but it rains constantly and British “cuisine” is something straight out of a Cronenberg movie.
I'm with you on this Brandan. I'd guess it's more of a realisation of power rather than puppetry.
Ah man, the juxtaposition between boy and man is great; so much peer pressure throughout. I like the notes to tie the beginning and end with smoke though - the life being the light. Another excellent story. Damn.
Chuck what you are doing here is amazing. I’m sure you been blown a thousand times, but this is helping people grow. It’s very cool
Hey, I appreciate people who put their work out for comments. That's a pretty scary, risky act.
Thank you for giving back. You don’t have to
It speaks to your character. Hahahah
What do you mean by "blown a thousand times?" Is that a saying?
I mean like fans have sucked guy off a zillion times.
Not literally, but ego stroked … I’m sorry this is why I don’t post. I barely make sense
Haha! It's okay, that was what I thought you meant. Hell, if he keeps giving these critiques, add another thousand blowies.
I’m sorry
Hearts all around
The internet doesn’t always make us clear especially for some of us
This probably still makes no sense
You seem a little aggressive in here.
Is that by design or just a tic
I’m sorry if I offend you
No offense taken.
Thank you guy
Chuck, I've noticed that you censor your profanity. Is there a reason for that? You are a gentlemen in the streets but a freak on the sheets (of notebook paper).
At Freightliner Trucks the word f-ck was the go-to noun, verb, adjective. To fit in I adopted the talk, and years later had to shed that habit when I found myself on radio or television, after the FCC began to levy six-figure fines for on-air profanity.
Beyond that I found profanity stale. It was a shortcut similar to abstract measurements or adverbs or dictating emotion. Unless I rid myself of that crutch -- profanity -- I'd never develop other methods to manipulate the reader.
My usual stance on profanity in writing was to simply not overdo it. It'll lose its power. I could probably write without cursing but...that isn't how I speak. My life isn't all that squeaky clean. Only when I'm gaming and losing terribly, do I curse. But everywhere else, I don't. My dad would whoop me as a kid if I cursed. So it's not really a strong habit for me.
Are you saying that there are better ways of manipulating the reader than to use the word fuck or shit or every other colorful word at our disposable?
Agreed. In 'Fight Club' I limited myself to one f-ck. It's in the speech about "we guard you while you sleep... so don't f-ck with us." Less is more.
I remember you saying that. And I think that's wicked impressive.
Thanks for sharing Cody!
The image of an eleven year old kid shooting a piss drenched man is going to stick with me for at least the rest of the week. Great scene.
I agree that hiding the fact that Jacob has to kill someone today until the end would greatly increase the tension. It would lead the reader from a world they think Jacob lives in into the world he actually lives in. This, I think, would better emphasize this great dichotomy you show between innocence and the loss of it. You’d be bringing the reader into the world instead of dropping them right in it.
Thank you so much, Chuck. If I were half as great a writer as you I’d Maybe be able to express properly the Honor I feel. Not only did you take the time to read my story, but you gave Amazing feedback. Truly appreciate it. And Thank you to everyone else who read my story, I appreciate all of you.
No, thank you. You went to the scary place and did the impossible task. That's what a writer does.