To be honest, I think I can almost recall your full confession even after a few days. Sixteen years old, drunk on wine, wanted Oreos, got in car, hit dog, brought dog to parents, said neighbors did a hit and run.
Hah! I was itching for the reveal and am glad I didn't scratch it prematurely by revealing it. And for me the best part about this reveal, is that anyone can go back and say they were lying. Just made it up. I'm a fiction writer and that's what I do.
Lish trolled people. He knew what he was doing. It's incredible.
Hope you and everyone has a nice Thanksgiving btw
One time I took the raw turkey neck up to my room and pulled down my...wait, this exercise is over.
My share? The first time I cooked a turkey I didn't know the giblets were sealed in a bag inside the bird. At Thanksgiving dinner I thought someone at the turkey farm had stuffed plastic bags inside my bird as a joke. Pulling trash out of the turkey's ass didn't instill hunger in my guests.
Hahaha! And that's when everyone gently put down their knife and fork, undid their bibs, and grabbed their car keys and left.
I remember watching a video of this girl inspecting this large cooked turkey and when she looked inside, she found a smaller bird carcass. Her mom secretly stuffed a cooked chicken in the turkey. But the girl was about to cry because she thought the turkey was pregnant lol
You spoke about hiding things, like money or wine, into the walls before you moved when you were younger. So that when someone finds it, they get a sense of great joy. And I think you've applied that to fiction. When you talk about Ira Levin's Rosemary's Baby and thalidomide. Or Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire and the passing of her child.
But a part of me still thinks that if I ever were to hide something in fiction, or to replace something horrific with a metaphor, that it might not ever be unburied and appreciated. I'd be the only one with the secret. And it does sometimes irk me when I think about having to bury things in order to not bother people. Still haven't fully accepted that idea.
Most excellent. Enjoyed this a lot, and this post gives me more confidence to tell those lies as though they are truth, and build deeper layers with my characters.
That's where I thought this was going. A little bit disappointed.
I don't think I'm nitpicking when I suggest that "tell me something you've never told anyone", and "tell me your most shameful secret" are completely different instructions. Either instruction can lead to an excellent lie, but not the same lie, or not to the same truth - for those who immediately thought a truth was required.
Knowing what the reveal was, I enjoyed going through the comments trying to sort out who else knew and was maybe being less than honest. (I did have a friend who was dating an older guy that tried to change her but that's as far as the truth goes.)
Late, tired, on puppy duty, so perhaps this won't make sense, but is it possible that this exercise is too "surface," and, therefore, perhaps, counterproductive?
What I mean is, "I wish my mother would finally die," "I masturbate on my boss's desk each night," "I whatever..." is what someone thinks is their deepest, darkest secret, the one they would never ever reveal (unless they're a writer in a workshop with Lish), but their true secret is far more mundane and, more importantly, the one that not even they understand or willingly confront: my mother makes me feel inadequate, I feel powerless when confronted by strong women, I whatever...
Isn't that the essential nature of the internal arc of a character? Who cares if you wish your mother would die or you masturbate on your boss's desk? What's interesting is the why behind those actions and, when prompted by external conflict, whether the protagonist recognizes and deals (or not) with it.
Or maybe I'm missing the point. Like I said, late, tired, etc.
I like the question you raised here, it surely bring depth to the purpose of the game. What I think though is that the exercise itself is not counterproductive as it offers a starting point, it opens a door to highlight a potential problem. You identify the problem, get a taste of it first, confront your inner demons, let yourself get scared by them, retreat, push forward again and then when you got all the courage you need, only then begin to ask more questions. Otherwise for some it might be overwhelming to dive directly into the deep waters when they barely learned how to swim…
Yep, I agree, but (isn't there always one?), what if it's not the best starting point? What if it's only the most lurid or shocking or embarrassing aspect of a person's life?
It seems that, often, those things aren't motivated by anything deep. Doing them is just sort of exhilarating.
A person gets off on his boss's desk every night because that's more "exciting" than watching porn, but most people watch porn to get off, nothing more or less, and, if that's what drives the deep, dark secret, then it's a door to nowhere.
Actually, not a door to nowhere as much as one that's not particularly interesting.
If that would be the case then I assume that everyone would masturbate on their boss’s desk to make things more exhilarating. But while watching porn at home is safe, masturbating in a place where one can get caught isn’t. Why would one put himself in danger of losing his job if there isn’t some darker reason for doing so that needs to be explored. There is always some controversial aspects that scream to be investigated, in having a deviant behaviour that usually people don’t have. There is also the possibility that one has an abnormal behaviour out of stupidity or ignorance. In that case it is interesting to see how that person relates to what he has done when he finally understands the significance of his wrongdoing or how others relate to his behaviour. Either way a deviant behaviour has a destructive impact to either the self or others which in my opinion worth being explored
I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't agree with the assumption that putting one's self in danger of losing a job (for example) indicates a deeper, darker source. To one person, that might seem like an enormous risk. To another, it may be perfectly inconsequential.
I suppose my point is that sometimes people simply do things because they're fun or stupid or exhilarating or maybe, at the moment, they bored. That's particularly true when people are young, when they do all sorts of irrational things without much, if any, consideration for the consequences. And there may not be any retrospective analysis of the action because it's just some stupid shit a person did out of boredom.
Also, what makes a behavior deviant? Deviance is merely something that differs from the norms of society. Not all things that do are destructive. That's sort of obvious, right? Standards change. Sex between two men was considered a deviant act not too long ago (and still is by many). But I think it's safe to say that sex between two men doesn't necessarily have a "destructive impact to either the self or others" then (or now).
Your argument about people oftentimes doing abnormal things when being young for reasons not always deserving to be explored, is strong enough. And I agree with you that society’s perception regarding what is not normal changes in time. Yet I assume that our past “mistakes” can still be a source of inspiration from time to time when looking for a subject to write about. Chuck’s article also offers a hint about how to relate emotionally to a sensitive topic in case that you choose to write about it, saying that “you should treat your character’s ultimate secret(s) as gingerly as you treat your own”. That probably gives more depth to the telling. Now, choosing to write about something or not is ultimately part of writer’s journey but I think that this exercise can be a valid starting point, if not always at least sometimes - not to mention that it reminds me of another article I read here about “dangerous writing” that could very well come after this one chronically speaking, in the process of creating a story
Yep. I'm definitely not suggesting the exercise can't be useful. For some people, it may be, incredibly so.
However, almost by definition (though not always), the "most" shameful (deepest, darkest) secret of someone's life is an outlier. And, I suspect, for many people (though, again, definitely not everyone), it's not so much shameful as simply embarrassing. It wasn't done for a deep, dark reason. It was merely a lark, the product of some combination of boredom, alcohol/drugs, peer-pressure, and any number of other mundane reasons. Tweak the circumstances a bit, eliminate one of those factors, and it wouldn't have happened. Perhaps, in part (or at times), that's what contributes to the embarrassment.
Said differently, if the deep, dark secret has a deep, dark internal source, it may be (probably is) worthwhile mining it.
However, it's not necessarily a magic key to unlock writing that's "close to the bone" or whatever. It could be a dead-end, totally inconsequential, insignificant, and mundane.
Just saw the comment you posted after this one. Totally agree with your assessment. And, yes, thanks for discussion!
Talking to you made me realise that probably this sort of exercise suits better to those still having unresolved issues lingering from the past, people who choose to use writing as a therapy session to liberate themselves from demons lurking in the shadows of their souls. If that is not the case for you then probably this exercise is irrelevant in your case 😉 Thank you for the conversation, it sure was interesting to see another so different point of view on this topic 🙏
Your comment of "The why behind those actions" remind me of this video with Jack Grapes about finding the deeper truth and writing your story from there.
What I've never told anyone is I don't like the way you think. That's because an ex of mine said that to me, and I found it the most crushingly cruet thing she could have said. I think I fulfilled the mission.
Damn. And I told the truth?
I did too. The dread feeling before sharing is real!
Amazing! Thank you. For my next act- I’ll run over the cat, a chicken and maybe hit a cow.
To be honest, I think I can almost recall your full confession even after a few days. Sixteen years old, drunk on wine, wanted Oreos, got in car, hit dog, brought dog to parents, said neighbors did a hit and run.
It's the crazy stuff you remember the most.
Or I could be wrong lol
You are dead on. I’m glad my lue/words stuck with you!
Thanks for these posts, Chuck! I appreciate these exercises/lessons very much!
Hah! I was itching for the reveal and am glad I didn't scratch it prematurely by revealing it. And for me the best part about this reveal, is that anyone can go back and say they were lying. Just made it up. I'm a fiction writer and that's what I do.
Lish trolled people. He knew what he was doing. It's incredible.
Hope you and everyone has a nice Thanksgiving btw
One time I took the raw turkey neck up to my room and pulled down my...wait, this exercise is over.
My share? The first time I cooked a turkey I didn't know the giblets were sealed in a bag inside the bird. At Thanksgiving dinner I thought someone at the turkey farm had stuffed plastic bags inside my bird as a joke. Pulling trash out of the turkey's ass didn't instill hunger in my guests.
Ha! I’ve done the same but discovered it before serving the bird. Poker face.
Hahaha! And that's when everyone gently put down their knife and fork, undid their bibs, and grabbed their car keys and left.
I remember watching a video of this girl inspecting this large cooked turkey and when she looked inside, she found a smaller bird carcass. Her mom secretly stuffed a cooked chicken in the turkey. But the girl was about to cry because she thought the turkey was pregnant lol
ThAt'S funny.
Maybe they put the bags in the bird’s ass while it was alive. Like there’s a pervert with a turkey and plastic bag fetish.
I feel absolutely weightless. I feel so much *closer* to all of you now.
And now I can write forward.
If nothing else, this exercise shows you the diff between a clever idea and something weighty that will change you and the reader.
We are still waiting on your career-ending confession, Chuck.
Don't hold your breath. I bury my bodies deep in fiction.
You spoke about hiding things, like money or wine, into the walls before you moved when you were younger. So that when someone finds it, they get a sense of great joy. And I think you've applied that to fiction. When you talk about Ira Levin's Rosemary's Baby and thalidomide. Or Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire and the passing of her child.
But a part of me still thinks that if I ever were to hide something in fiction, or to replace something horrific with a metaphor, that it might not ever be unburied and appreciated. I'd be the only one with the secret. And it does sometimes irk me when I think about having to bury things in order to not bother people. Still haven't fully accepted that idea.
I don't know lol
The reason why I love this exercise was because it let me get to know everyone! Everybody became real to me.
Yes
Exactly. It's not just a meme or repost on a page.
Most excellent. Enjoyed this a lot, and this post gives me more confidence to tell those lies as though they are truth, and build deeper layers with my characters.
Thanks Chuck.
Same
That is... incredible. 🤯👏🏻
Love it. Serious food for thought.
That's where I thought this was going. A little bit disappointed.
I don't think I'm nitpicking when I suggest that "tell me something you've never told anyone", and "tell me your most shameful secret" are completely different instructions. Either instruction can lead to an excellent lie, but not the same lie, or not to the same truth - for those who immediately thought a truth was required.
Knowing what the reveal was, I enjoyed going through the comments trying to sort out who else knew and was maybe being less than honest. (I did have a friend who was dating an older guy that tried to change her but that's as far as the truth goes.)
Late, tired, on puppy duty, so perhaps this won't make sense, but is it possible that this exercise is too "surface," and, therefore, perhaps, counterproductive?
What I mean is, "I wish my mother would finally die," "I masturbate on my boss's desk each night," "I whatever..." is what someone thinks is their deepest, darkest secret, the one they would never ever reveal (unless they're a writer in a workshop with Lish), but their true secret is far more mundane and, more importantly, the one that not even they understand or willingly confront: my mother makes me feel inadequate, I feel powerless when confronted by strong women, I whatever...
Isn't that the essential nature of the internal arc of a character? Who cares if you wish your mother would die or you masturbate on your boss's desk? What's interesting is the why behind those actions and, when prompted by external conflict, whether the protagonist recognizes and deals (or not) with it.
Or maybe I'm missing the point. Like I said, late, tired, etc.
I like your take. Yes often we arrive at that the journey, don’t we?
And it’s in that relatability so often
we find our celebration, disdain or disappointment because it translates to what we ourselves wanted to accomplish or deny.
I like the question you raised here, it surely bring depth to the purpose of the game. What I think though is that the exercise itself is not counterproductive as it offers a starting point, it opens a door to highlight a potential problem. You identify the problem, get a taste of it first, confront your inner demons, let yourself get scared by them, retreat, push forward again and then when you got all the courage you need, only then begin to ask more questions. Otherwise for some it might be overwhelming to dive directly into the deep waters when they barely learned how to swim…
Yep, I agree, but (isn't there always one?), what if it's not the best starting point? What if it's only the most lurid or shocking or embarrassing aspect of a person's life?
It seems that, often, those things aren't motivated by anything deep. Doing them is just sort of exhilarating.
A person gets off on his boss's desk every night because that's more "exciting" than watching porn, but most people watch porn to get off, nothing more or less, and, if that's what drives the deep, dark secret, then it's a door to nowhere.
Actually, not a door to nowhere as much as one that's not particularly interesting.
If that would be the case then I assume that everyone would masturbate on their boss’s desk to make things more exhilarating. But while watching porn at home is safe, masturbating in a place where one can get caught isn’t. Why would one put himself in danger of losing his job if there isn’t some darker reason for doing so that needs to be explored. There is always some controversial aspects that scream to be investigated, in having a deviant behaviour that usually people don’t have. There is also the possibility that one has an abnormal behaviour out of stupidity or ignorance. In that case it is interesting to see how that person relates to what he has done when he finally understands the significance of his wrongdoing or how others relate to his behaviour. Either way a deviant behaviour has a destructive impact to either the self or others which in my opinion worth being explored
I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't agree with the assumption that putting one's self in danger of losing a job (for example) indicates a deeper, darker source. To one person, that might seem like an enormous risk. To another, it may be perfectly inconsequential.
I suppose my point is that sometimes people simply do things because they're fun or stupid or exhilarating or maybe, at the moment, they bored. That's particularly true when people are young, when they do all sorts of irrational things without much, if any, consideration for the consequences. And there may not be any retrospective analysis of the action because it's just some stupid shit a person did out of boredom.
Also, what makes a behavior deviant? Deviance is merely something that differs from the norms of society. Not all things that do are destructive. That's sort of obvious, right? Standards change. Sex between two men was considered a deviant act not too long ago (and still is by many). But I think it's safe to say that sex between two men doesn't necessarily have a "destructive impact to either the self or others" then (or now).
Your argument about people oftentimes doing abnormal things when being young for reasons not always deserving to be explored, is strong enough. And I agree with you that society’s perception regarding what is not normal changes in time. Yet I assume that our past “mistakes” can still be a source of inspiration from time to time when looking for a subject to write about. Chuck’s article also offers a hint about how to relate emotionally to a sensitive topic in case that you choose to write about it, saying that “you should treat your character’s ultimate secret(s) as gingerly as you treat your own”. That probably gives more depth to the telling. Now, choosing to write about something or not is ultimately part of writer’s journey but I think that this exercise can be a valid starting point, if not always at least sometimes - not to mention that it reminds me of another article I read here about “dangerous writing” that could very well come after this one chronically speaking, in the process of creating a story
Yep. I'm definitely not suggesting the exercise can't be useful. For some people, it may be, incredibly so.
However, almost by definition (though not always), the "most" shameful (deepest, darkest) secret of someone's life is an outlier. And, I suspect, for many people (though, again, definitely not everyone), it's not so much shameful as simply embarrassing. It wasn't done for a deep, dark reason. It was merely a lark, the product of some combination of boredom, alcohol/drugs, peer-pressure, and any number of other mundane reasons. Tweak the circumstances a bit, eliminate one of those factors, and it wouldn't have happened. Perhaps, in part (or at times), that's what contributes to the embarrassment.
Said differently, if the deep, dark secret has a deep, dark internal source, it may be (probably is) worthwhile mining it.
However, it's not necessarily a magic key to unlock writing that's "close to the bone" or whatever. It could be a dead-end, totally inconsequential, insignificant, and mundane.
Just saw the comment you posted after this one. Totally agree with your assessment. And, yes, thanks for discussion!
Talking to you made me realise that probably this sort of exercise suits better to those still having unresolved issues lingering from the past, people who choose to use writing as a therapy session to liberate themselves from demons lurking in the shadows of their souls. If that is not the case for you then probably this exercise is irrelevant in your case 😉 Thank you for the conversation, it sure was interesting to see another so different point of view on this topic 🙏
Your comment of "The why behind those actions" remind me of this video with Jack Grapes about finding the deeper truth and writing your story from there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7yTb-k1ju4
Good stuff! Thanks for sharing. Very much appreciate it.
Have you read his two books? If so, what did you think of them?
I have not read Jack Grape's books, but this Film Courage YT channel has some good content.
I love this approach. Makes me wonder about some of the character’s I’ve written over the years.
Cool.
Liars never need to be told that they can lie.
This might be a true a statement as anything Lish ever said. Perfect.
What I've never told anyone is I don't like the way you think. That's because an ex of mine said that to me, and I found it the most crushingly cruet thing she could have said. I think I fulfilled the mission.
Lies are okay and the stuff of fiction, but I find truth more interesting. I'm not good at lying which is why struggle writing fiction.