Do you believe that objects retain memory? As in a house retains the events that happen in the house, and carries those events with it, which is interpreted as being haunted. I love this idea because I love old beat up things.
We love provenance, the history of things, and how the objects tie us to people in the past. That's why limiting objects and morphing them to accrue more meaning works so well in fiction.
I really enjoy the use of thin places, human interactions, and loneliness in fiction. In one of my favorite animes Evangelion, the hero characters use what is referred to as an AT-Field to protect themselves from harm during battles with angels. This "Absolute Terror" Field is the light of their soul and keeps them from truly being connected to other humans. A physical barrier that is our bodies. In one of the series endings the "Third impact" takes place and the whole of the humanity loses their physical forms and becomes this massive sea of souls in a giant ocean with no barriers to prevent loneliness or isolation. All of humanity is combined together except for 2 of the main characters. An Adam and Eve of sorts.
The persona video game series uses thin places and Japanese folklore to generate this mysterious alternate realities that our hero has to conquer. One game the alternate place is at midnight normal time stops and a 25th hour takes place while everyone else is frozen in coffins. This is where monsters roam and rare people that are left conscious during this time typical get murdered by the creatures in bizarre ways. One thin place is inside the TV on this special channel that broadcasts only on rainy nights. Another is inside the souls of other people but tied to a physical location that they believe they have a strong influence over. A place that they rule.
In the shower this morning, I was thinking about how it's difficult to absorb the lessons of dead words. A flurry of facts. Architecture and dialog. Stories, especially well-told ones, liven up our lectures. We need to be placed in the physical world and given something to hold onto.
I might get crucified for this, but... so many who-done-its are a moment of tableau horror, and two hours of architecture and dialog. I fell asleep during Glass Onion, waiting for something to happen. Then -- boom.
Calls to mind your line near the beginning of “Nonfiction”: “All my books are about a lonely person looking for someway to connect with other people. In a way, that is the opposite of the American dream ...”
A Christmas Carol draws from one of Jesus’ parables (Luke 16:19-31) in which a rich man, condemned to hell for being wealthy and not caring for the poor, pleads for a ghost to be sent to warn his five brothers. No ghost is sent in the parable, so Dickens sends them.
Interesting how at first Dickens had considered writing a manifesto, then cloaked it in melodrama. Emotional authority always trumps intellectual authority.
"Emotional authority always trumps intellectual authority." Brilliantly said. A level playing field. How do we disprove
?
The Britain article is a goldmine. "At the heart of the story and its extraordinary legacy is loneliness." At the heart of human existence and its extraordinary legacy is loneliness. Loneliness is one of the ingredients often in found in rage and hate and violence. Loneliness, like God, cannot be ignored. Before one shoots up a school, one must be profoundly lonely. The person most scared is the first to pull a gun. The person most lonely is the first to buy one.
A secret? Putting together Marla's "look" David Fincher told me, "She should look like Judy Garland looked just before she died." The ratted hair, the bony thinness, the pale hands, the smudged make-up and threadbare sequined gowns. A.I. missed it by a mile.
The article paints a fascinating picture of loneliness. And since you've asked our thoughts, can isolation in some context prove to be better than presenting an inauthentic self? Can it also be used as a prolonged moment, to rebuild that core an individual loses as a result of that survivalistic functioning to fit the describtion of a close circle, and a society (that is collective by nature)? Loneliness can seem like a step back but, at times can also be the only step forward.
I feel like I'm going against the grain. I could be so wrong.
like, when a person goes to extremes, by presenting a whole false self, to trick people into liking him. If that person does it enough time, he loses himself. Next is to remove the untrue, and reconfigure everything. The cost is loneliness, the gain is self acceptance. It's necessary.
So, is that why people who love rom-coms love them so much? Because their biggest fear is loneliness, and those movies give them the catharsis of watching someone overcome it and couple up with their perfect significant other?
Come to think of it, this article is the best explanation I can think of for why Christmas rom-coms are so bland and formulaic that people make jokes and memes about them, yet every year Hallmark cranks out more of them and people continue to consume them.
While reading— I kept thinking of Charlie Manx’s Christmas Land with the constant abduction of children to fulfill his own loneliness and youthful appearance. “N0S4A2” is a strong story by Joe Hill that has given me nightmares about the longing to be with others and establish friendships— which seems to be harder to do as I age.
One quote he uses— about being alone, in need of help, but having your face turned up to the stars— all that glittering abundance— so many— but no one there to help and to die with your face and eyes turned up to the stars— that is humbling. That is real.
Another part, he mentions— other ghosts, wandering and chained like Marley— is that— other ghosts looking to redeem themselves because they too chose to be alone and work— rather than the company of people? I agree— technology has hampered human interaction. Even serving people food— when everyone is sitting together but all on their screens— when I walk up to the table— bubbly and friendly— I’m met with screenfaces that desperately want to swipe me away and just drop off the pizza without any communication. A robot will take my place one day to make them feel more comfortable. The worst— the table is always so cluttered— I have to clean a place off to set the pizza that’s burning my hand while they’re still in shock that a stranger just talked to them—- sometimes, they snap out of screen face mode and help— but it’s rare. How dare I interrupt them. It’s dehumanizing.
I agree— I wish there was more to read on this. Extremely insightful. Thank you for sharing. I saw the author has 2 books available… I might need to research further. I’ve already read the article twice. Soooo much rhere!
Chuck— what stood out to you? Almost reminds me of how solitary the act of a woman having an orgasm became in “A Beautiful You.” (Still one of my favorites.)
That's a tough one. For me Christmas was always too many people and too much food in an overheated house, usually my grandparent's farm. Late in the foggy afternoon I'd have to sneak outside and walk through the woods along the Snake River, just to knock down my idle. I sought out isolation in the midst of intense community, so I can see why loneliness can be the lesser of two evils.
Mike says I'd never laughed as much in thirty years as I did while writing 'Beautiful You.' It's actually a grim book about addiction and isolation, a woman tricked into isolation with commodified pleasure. It's about porn addiction, but that's too abstract. My dog, Imp, had just died, and I needed to write something gonzo and insane. Much of the humor relied on building an ominous clause or sentence and then botching the last word(s).
For example, I wrote, "Months of strenuous self pleasuring and a near-starvation diet of organic fungi and left Penny's body beautifully sculpted." My editor marked this passage with "I don't think so." But really the whole book was about creating menace and then spoiling the tension with one very wrong word.
I’ll cherish that book even more now, thank you for talking more about it. For some reason— that one stood out for me so much and always had questions. Like so many of your books after reading them, there are always these everyday moments that will never not go unnoticed again because you put them in such a way that they are engraved in my head. Like— RANT— there’s the part about the garbage from everyone in town getting trapped in the metal fence and how Buster Casey always knows when someone is having their monthly— that was one of those— cause I see things like that in town often—- but, there it is— you captured it. I dunno how you do that— but, it’s my favorite.
Hey— I can’t remember where you said this—- but, you wrote somewhere how all reading that is done— it doesn’t have to be something you can relate to or see yourself in yo make it a good story— Maybe it was the intro to “Burnt Tongues?” Man, that lit my head on fire. I’ve been reading the stories in it— and it felt like walking into a group of strangers and just being a listener rather than engaging in conversation to relate—- and I really enjoyed that. Just walking into a story not knowing what to expect— this has changed my reading and I’m grateful for it. I feel bad for years of being a selfish reader! Even the books you recommend—- how some might be missing this or that— but, WOW— how strong voice might be— or another feature. I’ve really changed as a reader and taking more chances as a writer.
The best thing you taught me was cutting off action too soon— also, allowing the reader to choose how they feel about a character rather than me telling them how to feel about them. This has been a big break through.
Ghosts, Christmas and religious rituals are suggestive of the concept that everything, past, future, present all exist at once. Our perception of time is just our limited view of now - but all the events are in existence NOW. So, it makes sense that the ghosts, which aren't really present now, could lead us to different parts of our timeline because it already exists. To change that timeline requires real deliberate change, which is possible, but hard. I realize I sound a bit like a TEDtalk but I think it is a helpful way to look at it. I had a friend who had a personal loss and it affected her deeply. It was helpful to her to realize that her family member still exists in her timeline - that the past is real and exists.
I sent an email on the 28th to chuckpalahniuk@substack.com. Although, I may have sent it as a reply to your email update. What a fantastic website this is and I thank you so much. Brilliant.
If the email from Armenia was in regards to a large sum of money the Armenian Finance Minister has for you, yes, that was me.
I have a Patreon site where I post first draft scraps and I posted my email to you there. Don't worry, no one visits my site and it's free. If the link below doesn't get you there, I'll summarize: your site is awesome and inspiring.
Thank you for the article. I enjoyed how Dickens uses ghosts to keep the past present. The selfishness of past or current generations. It works whether or not we believe in ghosts.
Is anyone terrified of going to prison for hurting someone, but you had no control and have no recollection of it?
About to finish The Ice at the Bottom of the World. So simple but the way he words things is cunning at the same time.
I know an awful lot of people who've been to prison for hurting someone. I'm one of them. We remember.
Not the guy in the story Im working on!
Wow. I'd like meet him. But first, I'd like to know his trigger so I don't discover it the hard way.
I dont want to post the whole idea here because its very public. But he is very kind and dumb.
However, a disorder, his passivity, and a nightmare girlfriend result in his unknowingly doing something horrific.
That’s brilliant. I love it. Kind and dumb doing something horrific. What a combination
I’ve had to slooow way down while reading all of the short stories— it’s exemplary in voice and story.
Fuck yeah. Ain't that what Fight Clubs about. Not being ashamed to admit you are human?
Do you believe that objects retain memory? As in a house retains the events that happen in the house, and carries those events with it, which is interpreted as being haunted. I love this idea because I love old beat up things.
We love provenance, the history of things, and how the objects tie us to people in the past. That's why limiting objects and morphing them to accrue more meaning works so well in fiction.
The rings from Scrooge's bed curtains.
Limited objects and liminoid events.
Have you seen the film, “A Ghost Story?” It’s dealing with what you are discussing. A favorite.
I'll check it out, thanks!!!
I really enjoy the use of thin places, human interactions, and loneliness in fiction. In one of my favorite animes Evangelion, the hero characters use what is referred to as an AT-Field to protect themselves from harm during battles with angels. This "Absolute Terror" Field is the light of their soul and keeps them from truly being connected to other humans. A physical barrier that is our bodies. In one of the series endings the "Third impact" takes place and the whole of the humanity loses their physical forms and becomes this massive sea of souls in a giant ocean with no barriers to prevent loneliness or isolation. All of humanity is combined together except for 2 of the main characters. An Adam and Eve of sorts.
The persona video game series uses thin places and Japanese folklore to generate this mysterious alternate realities that our hero has to conquer. One game the alternate place is at midnight normal time stops and a 25th hour takes place while everyone else is frozen in coffins. This is where monsters roam and rare people that are left conscious during this time typical get murdered by the creatures in bizarre ways. One thin place is inside the TV on this special channel that broadcasts only on rainy nights. Another is inside the souls of other people but tied to a physical location that they believe they have a strong influence over. A place that they rule.
In the shower this morning, I was thinking about how it's difficult to absorb the lessons of dead words. A flurry of facts. Architecture and dialog. Stories, especially well-told ones, liven up our lectures. We need to be placed in the physical world and given something to hold onto.
I can attest to Britain being haunted. It’s cold, depressing, and the constant wind makes it seem like someone’s breathing down your neck.
This eloquently put sentiment can be applied largely to all of Britain: https://youtu.be/jS94-_zy3Dg
Can we switch places, please? To me, you've described cosy rain coats, warm blankets, and hot cups of anti-cold chocolate milk with mint.
I’ll take that trade!
I might get crucified for this, but... so many who-done-its are a moment of tableau horror, and two hours of architecture and dialog. I fell asleep during Glass Onion, waiting for something to happen. Then -- boom.
Now I don’t feel so bad— Rob and I fell asleep as well.
Uh same.............I'm ashamed
Northeast Ohio— very similar.
Calls to mind your line near the beginning of “Nonfiction”: “All my books are about a lonely person looking for someway to connect with other people. In a way, that is the opposite of the American dream ...”
A Christmas Carol draws from one of Jesus’ parables (Luke 16:19-31) in which a rich man, condemned to hell for being wealthy and not caring for the poor, pleads for a ghost to be sent to warn his five brothers. No ghost is sent in the parable, so Dickens sends them.
Interesting how at first Dickens had considered writing a manifesto, then cloaked it in melodrama. Emotional authority always trumps intellectual authority.
"Emotional authority always trumps intellectual authority." Brilliantly said. A level playing field. How do we disprove
?
The Britain article is a goldmine. "At the heart of the story and its extraordinary legacy is loneliness." At the heart of human existence and its extraordinary legacy is loneliness. Loneliness is one of the ingredients often in found in rage and hate and violence. Loneliness, like God, cannot be ignored. Before one shoots up a school, one must be profoundly lonely. The person most scared is the first to pull a gun. The person most lonely is the first to buy one.
Hope you got a chance to see the post! Marla's in on this one! A.I.'s version of Marla. Is it her, Mr. Palahniuk? https://magazine.lensvid.com/size/fb/1159127368/movie-characters-recreated-with-artificial-intelligence/?uvv=750&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=z3-us-d-aIpplfb-23853107804760579&fbclid=IwAR1rc3kyGI5josuGGWgysWoXNVeajx_rPWe-zz78XX6kXqujnzk7xk2LZBM&pg=22
A secret? Putting together Marla's "look" David Fincher told me, "She should look like Judy Garland looked just before she died." The ratted hair, the bony thinness, the pale hands, the smudged make-up and threadbare sequined gowns. A.I. missed it by a mile.
Apparently David Fincher did as well...<Running away>
The article paints a fascinating picture of loneliness. And since you've asked our thoughts, can isolation in some context prove to be better than presenting an inauthentic self? Can it also be used as a prolonged moment, to rebuild that core an individual loses as a result of that survivalistic functioning to fit the describtion of a close circle, and a society (that is collective by nature)? Loneliness can seem like a step back but, at times can also be the only step forward.
I feel like I'm going against the grain. I could be so wrong.
Your language is pretty dense, here. Can you simplify or use an anecdote?
Do you mean that isolation and loneliness can be a gestation period, during which you assimilate recent events and re-calibrate/reinvent yourself?
Exactly. A reconnection.
like, when a person goes to extremes, by presenting a whole false self, to trick people into liking him. If that person does it enough time, he loses himself. Next is to remove the untrue, and reconfigure everything. The cost is loneliness, the gain is self acceptance. It's necessary.
Sorry dude, was this clear?
As crystal.
Great read but is there anything we can do about loneliness. I feel better in solitude and try to avoid people.
So, is that why people who love rom-coms love them so much? Because their biggest fear is loneliness, and those movies give them the catharsis of watching someone overcome it and couple up with their perfect significant other?
Come to think of it, this article is the best explanation I can think of for why Christmas rom-coms are so bland and formulaic that people make jokes and memes about them, yet every year Hallmark cranks out more of them and people continue to consume them.
What is this Hallmark channel that you speak of? . . . . :)
TV for people who want their entertainment to be as exciting as a greeting card. 😂
Happy New Year!
There is so much in the article to unpack.
While reading— I kept thinking of Charlie Manx’s Christmas Land with the constant abduction of children to fulfill his own loneliness and youthful appearance. “N0S4A2” is a strong story by Joe Hill that has given me nightmares about the longing to be with others and establish friendships— which seems to be harder to do as I age.
One quote he uses— about being alone, in need of help, but having your face turned up to the stars— all that glittering abundance— so many— but no one there to help and to die with your face and eyes turned up to the stars— that is humbling. That is real.
Another part, he mentions— other ghosts, wandering and chained like Marley— is that— other ghosts looking to redeem themselves because they too chose to be alone and work— rather than the company of people? I agree— technology has hampered human interaction. Even serving people food— when everyone is sitting together but all on their screens— when I walk up to the table— bubbly and friendly— I’m met with screenfaces that desperately want to swipe me away and just drop off the pizza without any communication. A robot will take my place one day to make them feel more comfortable. The worst— the table is always so cluttered— I have to clean a place off to set the pizza that’s burning my hand while they’re still in shock that a stranger just talked to them—- sometimes, they snap out of screen face mode and help— but it’s rare. How dare I interrupt them. It’s dehumanizing.
I agree— I wish there was more to read on this. Extremely insightful. Thank you for sharing. I saw the author has 2 books available… I might need to research further. I’ve already read the article twice. Soooo much rhere!
Chuck— what stood out to you? Almost reminds me of how solitary the act of a woman having an orgasm became in “A Beautiful You.” (Still one of my favorites.)
That's a tough one. For me Christmas was always too many people and too much food in an overheated house, usually my grandparent's farm. Late in the foggy afternoon I'd have to sneak outside and walk through the woods along the Snake River, just to knock down my idle. I sought out isolation in the midst of intense community, so I can see why loneliness can be the lesser of two evils.
Mike says I'd never laughed as much in thirty years as I did while writing 'Beautiful You.' It's actually a grim book about addiction and isolation, a woman tricked into isolation with commodified pleasure. It's about porn addiction, but that's too abstract. My dog, Imp, had just died, and I needed to write something gonzo and insane. Much of the humor relied on building an ominous clause or sentence and then botching the last word(s).
For example, I wrote, "Months of strenuous self pleasuring and a near-starvation diet of organic fungi and left Penny's body beautifully sculpted." My editor marked this passage with "I don't think so." But really the whole book was about creating menace and then spoiling the tension with one very wrong word.
I’ll cherish that book even more now, thank you for talking more about it. For some reason— that one stood out for me so much and always had questions. Like so many of your books after reading them, there are always these everyday moments that will never not go unnoticed again because you put them in such a way that they are engraved in my head. Like— RANT— there’s the part about the garbage from everyone in town getting trapped in the metal fence and how Buster Casey always knows when someone is having their monthly— that was one of those— cause I see things like that in town often—- but, there it is— you captured it. I dunno how you do that— but, it’s my favorite.
Hey— I can’t remember where you said this—- but, you wrote somewhere how all reading that is done— it doesn’t have to be something you can relate to or see yourself in yo make it a good story— Maybe it was the intro to “Burnt Tongues?” Man, that lit my head on fire. I’ve been reading the stories in it— and it felt like walking into a group of strangers and just being a listener rather than engaging in conversation to relate—- and I really enjoyed that. Just walking into a story not knowing what to expect— this has changed my reading and I’m grateful for it. I feel bad for years of being a selfish reader! Even the books you recommend—- how some might be missing this or that— but, WOW— how strong voice might be— or another feature. I’ve really changed as a reader and taking more chances as a writer.
The best thing you taught me was cutting off action too soon— also, allowing the reader to choose how they feel about a character rather than me telling them how to feel about them. This has been a big break through.
…and I wrote too much again. Sorry!
Ghosts, Christmas and religious rituals are suggestive of the concept that everything, past, future, present all exist at once. Our perception of time is just our limited view of now - but all the events are in existence NOW. So, it makes sense that the ghosts, which aren't really present now, could lead us to different parts of our timeline because it already exists. To change that timeline requires real deliberate change, which is possible, but hard. I realize I sound a bit like a TEDtalk but I think it is a helpful way to look at it. I had a friend who had a personal loss and it affected her deeply. It was helpful to her to realize that her family member still exists in her timeline - that the past is real and exists.
Sorry for intruding, but if I send an email to the webmaster, will Chuck read it? I don't need a reply, it's more of a thank-you note.
But of course. Send away.
I sent an email on the 28th to chuckpalahniuk@substack.com. Although, I may have sent it as a reply to your email update. What a fantastic website this is and I thank you so much. Brilliant.
So... on the 29th I got two emails forwarded. One regarding Nicole, the other from Armenia. Was one of them yours?
Funny, the photos of Nicole just arrived. Very sweet. I love to make people cry.
If the email from Armenia was in regards to a large sum of money the Armenian Finance Minister has for you, yes, that was me.
I have a Patreon site where I post first draft scraps and I posted my email to you there. Don't worry, no one visits my site and it's free. If the link below doesn't get you there, I'll summarize: your site is awesome and inspiring.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/palahniuks-76618966?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link
Actually, what I put on Patreon wasn't the email. I just discovered the email was something different and so I posted it here: https://open.substack.com/pub/mtvessel/p/this-is-the-damn-letter-i-sent?r=1ytmm0&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
I liked it.
Now I’m making a New Year’s resolution to write a/some/the ghost story.
Coincidentally, I read this article shortly after reading Grady Hendrix’ rundown of the Christmas ghost story tradition: https://www.tor.com/2022/12/19/christmas-ghost-stories-how-the-holidays-became-haunted/#more-723672 (the focus on A Christmas Carol lets them complement each other)
May everyone see the world through Scrooge’s Christmas morning eyes this year.
Hugs to all!
Happy New Year!
Happy New Year!
Thank you for the article. I enjoyed how Dickens uses ghosts to keep the past present. The selfishness of past or current generations. It works whether or not we believe in ghosts.