Open-mic night time limits? We all put names on slips of paper in a hat and pass it back to see who goes on to finish? "Can't vote for yourself..." Yeah, sounds complicated.
Maybe marbles in a jar where it isn't obvious who is voting for which outcome. While it would be nice to feel a crowd's adoration, the opposite is brutal. Give everyone a little bit of plausible deniability.
In “consider this” you mention starting your own workshop as a chance to celebrate the act of writing. Im in SLC so if I find a local workshop should I show up first time with wine and see how it goes?
There has to be limits. The biggest is no memoir. If you have accomplished something amazing or been through something astonishing, maybe it's ok. It's pure narcissism to think a group of strangers want to hear about unexciting failed relationships, poignant memories, etc. I literally start shaking. Make something up. Be creative or be quiet. Second, have a f---ing point, even if it's to excite or scare the listener. Or, better yet, go nuts and have a deep meaning, a lesson. Third, actually reread and edit your work. No first drafts. Ever.
Agreed. 'Trauma-dumping' comes to mind. Seems to be a thing in workplaces now. A colleague told me she'd seen her Mum that weekend. I asked politely if she had a good time (foolishly at the start of a 40 minute tram ride). By the end I knew all her brother's medical conditions and that her mother was born with two vaginas.
Agreed. Someone else at work who I only have the vaguest awareness of their life outside work stated they were very upset as I'd triggered them. Because I used a word that made them think of their childhood. That I knew nothing about. What exactly can a person do with that?
It doesn't affect me negatively, it's just an observation that people sometimes have an urge to overshare with strangers, the 'stranger on the train' phenomenon. I think some people are a bit like leaky boilers - the pressure has to come out at random moments or it'll explode.
Hmmm, things to add to my Weird Animal Knowledge Pile along with last week's discovery that rabbits have two uteruses and can carry two litters at the same time. Sounds hideous.
That one I did know! Not the rectum part, but I watched vultures at our local zoo disembowel a cow, which was just as gross as it wounds. The zookeeper said they were bald so they didn't have to try to keep feathers free of guts.
I really enjoyed the 600-word count. I was very concerned with my essay but I realized that anyone can read their 600 words and anyone can listen to 600 words. If I failed then at least I could get a lesson in and it would not be a big deal. I really enjoyed that word count. I always have so much fun!
Pond scum can be fun. It's what you make of it. I can tell all my friends that I was pond scum at my writing class and the kinds of friends I have would think that was so cool.
My worry has always been this regarding higher level graduate programs and so on: How does the teacher know if the student writers are simply “playing up to the teacher” by writing stories they will be praised for that is similar to that teachers style? How does everyone’s work stay true to who they are as writers? How can writers break a mold that is set within a group?
Short example: nude drawing class. Everyone is drawing the same body— but, everyone has their own style along with what they choose to draw on from that nude body. Some may only choose a segment of it to draw, some the whole body. As we hang up all our drawings in the wall from class to be critiqued— how do we know what’s truly “good?”
I think your style of writing is impeccable and earnest. It has depth and every word is chosen with intent. It’s masterful. I’ve also been learning from other students of Tom’s as well. I’ve been reading all the books you mention, which has been a phenomenal experience! But, now I have all this knowledge and I have writer’s block! Maybe, it’s like you say, “Take yourself for a walk.” After watching “Wildcat” that makes sense.
In college, I took a beginning drawing class and my friend refused to draw the male model’s Dinka. All her portraits, a blank between the legs. An odd modesty, perhaps, but no big deal. Except at the time, I was going through my “everything must be balanced” phase. So to counter her gap, compelled you might say, I started drawing only the male model’s Dinka.
My metaphorical point is… maybe to prepare for the inevitable boor, there could always be a superstar ready to hop on stage afterwards? Who didn’t read their applause-guaranteed piece unless the crowd needed a chaser? If only the boor didn’t have feelings
To copy the teacher's style seems nature. Everyone in Dangerous Writing went through that phase, after that the promising folks split off -- me to some isolation, Monica Drake to study with Joy Williams in Arizona -- eventually we came back with our own evolved "voice." Summer is perfect for that splitting off period.
I relate to that, Kerri. It's like I got all these shiny tools (minimalist techniques) and I know how to use them and they are all hung on the wall and when I go out there in the garage, I start appreciating them too much, feeling good about myself for knowing them, but then I forget to use them. Doh!
I've been real good kinda. Mr Greaves named me "Poet Bard of The Satanic Temple" so that's pretty cool. Other than that Ive just been a jerk a work and online and stuff. The usual. How are you doing? I also finished House of Leaves. It only took nearly a whole year.
Honestly, I'm still stuck on that dude with the bad Hindsight story. I wanna know what he said that was so bad. Was he just boring? Did he read for too long? I'm very interested in the actions of this wicked woman.
I love and hate the Lish method. I love the fact that the boors would get shut down, saving people time. But also I'd hate it because I'd get shut down too. You would really have to present something grand.
One last thing, I was reading a previous Gloves Off and you stated that when someone throws an insult or remark at the protag, you said don't have them respond because it takes away tension. That's such a cool little thing!
And you're welcome, Chuck! Now you HAVE to get that perm.
Regarding your comment on you being shut down too, if you allow me to ask this, did you ever received a punch in the chest? If yes, what did you do next? Remained down there, crying? No? 😃
I am pretty sure though you wouldn’t be among those to be shut down 😉
And you raised on your feet again stronger. I am not doing well when getting all the attention upon me but that is one more reason why I respect a lot those who can handle their emotions and ultimately "conquer" the crowd.
Thank you for the passion and energy you invest in promoting new talents. You are doing an incredible job and to be honest this page is among my favourites 🙏
On the other hand, I could totally see using that line, "She breasted boobily down the hallway" as the voice of a character narrating the story in his own head. In like a stream-of-consciousness style? [shrug]
Depends on what you are going for in the story. Sometimes I feel like leaning into the men writing women reddit group can be a benefit in some crass way.
Oh definitely! The first time I read bits of that kind of writing, I laughed my ass off. I was having a hell of a time. Until people started telling me how it's harmful and how I should rebuke it. But yeah if someone told a full story like that, I'd either laugh from the material or the reaction from the audience.
With Story Nights, there should also be an actual WORKSHOP. There does need to be a place where people can come read stories and bring in newbies. Writers do need to learn to be performers as well, that’s very important. But, a regular workshop is key for deeper dives and not just pandering to a crowd for laughs or shock.
Lish’s model would work for the workshops— but, Story Nights— that could be dangerous. Maybe, what if people paid to read? How would that sort writers?
Writers do deserve to be heard. But, determining what is worthy story wise to advance to the next level is a very tough decision. Having a writing topic and length will absolutely help. But, Story Nights and Workshops are totally different lessons to learn from as a writerly person.
Man— to hear Bourdain reading early writings from his first few novels— dang. That would have been king. I’m envious!
I was shocked when I heard Bourdain was in a class with Lish. A story I remember from Bourdain, he was a new chef and got burned. So he complained about it, asking for some cream and a band aid. And the other chefs gave him crap for it. Laughed at him. And then the head chef just cussed him out brutally. Bourdain described the head chef's hand as having a bunch of burns and scars and cuts and welts. And he said the head chef reached over and grabbed the handle of a scalding hot pan without making a face. Bourdain was humiliated.
Boy, if that isn’t close to the kitchen/kiss on the hand scene in the “Fight Club” film, I don’t know what is.
I’ve been on a Bourdain high as of lately. Probably due to the show, “The Bear.”
Nice mention from Chuck!! You have always had a great way with words, questions, and digging deeper. I’d love to see you interviewing people in depth. You’re so good at it. Better than some journalists!
Suzy Vitello mentioned The Bear on her Substack and I watched a few episodes and I remember enjoying what was happening. I should get back into it.
I'm also pretty fond of celebrity chefs like Ramsay, Bourdain, and Marco Pierre White. I just love how Marco speaks about cooking with deep admiration and mastery.
And thank you! I always worry about being too annoying with my comments and questions though.
Id preferred to get interrupted if I sucked. That sort of method would make me strive even harder to get better and weed out the people just trying to impress. I felt like the Portland Dance Studio Method was quite effective. My first cosplay story was pretty awful but I got a lot better by the time I hit 60 weeks. Thanks for letting me read. So who knows, I could be biased. The publishing world is no joke. Plenty of people only want to hear they will make it and their work is brilliant. Not every kid that plays T-ball can go to the world series and become a New York Times best selling author. I'm happy to write the best damn cosplay or sailor stories that I can, even if they are only for a friend to read.
Include everyone and let them read, but no babying. Treating adults with kid gloves is gross, and the practice has made many people very dysfunctional. We ain't made out of glass.
Now I really want to know what was in the evil female character story to make it so unnerving. I think it's helpful to get to have at least some of the stories in a workshop be poor quality for the learning experience of the audience and presenter.
I can only express my opinion as someone from the audience and my first thought in this regard is to ask for the mighty colosseum to open its gates and unleash the lions and the chariots of fire 😉😃.
Joke aside, my knowledges regarding how communism was implemented in Eastern European countries tell me that equality ends up making people lazy and demotivated. Performance is not compatible with equality no matter how you dress it up. Moreover, corporations in western society having powerful leaders with a vision did the extra miles that other companies having responsibility divided among participants did not manage to do.
That being said, my first question is: do you want for the public to assume the responsibility of selecting the most talented writers or should we rely on a higher authority for that? Which leads me to my second question: what should be the purpose of those nights? To identify new talents or to offer the opportunity for the newly discovered writers to get visibility and promotion?
I think that public is eternal regardless of culture and time. Roman public wanted to see the blood not warriors being cradled and my intuition tells me that many of the “warriors” you trained want the same 😁
I work in what we call in the UK the Third Sector. Mental health, offending, drugs and alcohol. There's two sayings that stuck with me from the start. 1) If you didn't write it down, it didn't happen 2) You're not a good worker until someone's complained about you. Point is we learn by mistakes and we can't effect a decent change until we have the realisation for ourselves. So we need that sinking feeling of, 'Oh, shit' to make us do things differently next time. So brutal critiques can only be a good thing for writing.
Lish's approach seems incredibly helpful--reminding writers fiction is about a relationship with a reader (engage me, acknowledge me or I'm cutting you off). But there's also brutal critiques in MFA workshops where you'd want to consider the source and the possible motivations.)
Very true. I've known people whose sport is simply to tear other people down. I guess it's all part of developing that extra layer of skin and deciding which critique is useful.
Case in point, I did a writing degree a long time ago and a tutor wrote on an (admittedly poor) submission of mine, "Do you want people to think you're funny? Or funnier than you are?" That burn took a lot of 2-4-1 student bar deals to heal.
So, I kind of view Story Night as “the gig” and workshop as “rehearsal.” But it’s amazing how many spectators truly enjoy watching rehearsals. It’s a chance for them to look behind the curtain and realize that what they perceive as magical talent is really more hard work and constant refinement. What if you hybridize it a bit? Have a set number of readers for each event, and have each of those readers bring enough pages for the group and yourself. The writer then gets the immediate feedback from the audience, plus more specific critiques from their colleagues. I also enjoy the prompt/page limit model, which I think helps with theme and pacing. Just my two cents on the matter. I’ll be happy to bring something out, however you end up running it. I’ve been working on reading to an audience. Yet another skill that requires practice. At least, for me it does.
I guess people showing promising signs with their writing getting priority reading over other group members can provide incentive for everyone else. Like, maybe if I listen and learn, I’ll get to that level. Then, going beyond that, maybe one day even literally Bob Ross tier . . .
P. S. Hey Chuck, is the UK publishing situation with “Shock Induction” all good? Asking because of the UK publication — or lack there off, rather — that happened with “Not Forever, but for Now” last year
I’m a shameless writing workshop virgin and my unpopped idealist cherry says: everyone reads two pages and then we cheer for our favorite to finish.
or cheer for everyone!! No favorites.
Which is wonderful in theory.
I'm talking cheers and boos like ancient Rome. Gladiatorial thumbs up or thumbs down to continue haha.
But, but... my ending is really good. Really, you have to hear how this ends.
Open-mic night time limits? We all put names on slips of paper in a hat and pass it back to see who goes on to finish? "Can't vote for yourself..." Yeah, sounds complicated.
If people started cheering for me to finish, I'd get serious performance anxiety. All that pressure.
Maybe marbles in a jar where it isn't obvious who is voting for which outcome. While it would be nice to feel a crowd's adoration, the opposite is brutal. Give everyone a little bit of plausible deniability.
In “consider this” you mention starting your own workshop as a chance to celebrate the act of writing. Im in SLC so if I find a local workshop should I show up first time with wine and see how it goes?
If it makes you produce work, do it. If you bond with even one fellow writer whose work you enjoy and respect, keep going back.
There has to be limits. The biggest is no memoir. If you have accomplished something amazing or been through something astonishing, maybe it's ok. It's pure narcissism to think a group of strangers want to hear about unexciting failed relationships, poignant memories, etc. I literally start shaking. Make something up. Be creative or be quiet. Second, have a f---ing point, even if it's to excite or scare the listener. Or, better yet, go nuts and have a deep meaning, a lesson. Third, actually reread and edit your work. No first drafts. Ever.
Boom!
Yeah, agreed. Eric going full Gloves Off in the comment section lol
Hi Joe G!
That made me laugh.
Some people write good first drafts and others write garbage 10th drafts. Really hard to gauge what you will get in a workshop.
Agreed. 'Trauma-dumping' comes to mind. Seems to be a thing in workplaces now. A colleague told me she'd seen her Mum that weekend. I asked politely if she had a good time (foolishly at the start of a 40 minute tram ride). By the end I knew all her brother's medical conditions and that her mother was born with two vaginas.
We have grossly overcorrected from no feelings allowed, to conjuring nonsensical feelings.
Agreed. Someone else at work who I only have the vaguest awareness of their life outside work stated they were very upset as I'd triggered them. Because I used a word that made them think of their childhood. That I knew nothing about. What exactly can a person do with that?
It doesn't affect me negatively, it's just an observation that people sometimes have an urge to overshare with strangers, the 'stranger on the train' phenomenon. I think some people are a bit like leaky boilers - the pressure has to come out at random moments or it'll explode.
Super true- so so so accurate. I like the objectivity and compassion of that perspective 👌🏼
This is a power play. Theyre looking to wield power over people with very conveniently conjured negative emotions.
I just cut one of these people out of my life.
Stay the hell away. If you call them on it theyll just double down on the nonsense. Perpetual victims are a lose/lose situation.
Some stories could be edited down to one sentence: "I'm said.". Meant, "I'm sad"
Sad?
Yes. Sorry. I should apply the reread your work rule to posting comments.
Like a opossum? (the thing not to say)
That was lost on me until I Googled opossum. Exactly that. Double mineshafts, the whole caboodle.
Hmmm, things to add to my Weird Animal Knowledge Pile along with last week's discovery that rabbits have two uteruses and can carry two litters at the same time. Sounds hideous.
Did you know the reason vultures are bald is so they can stick their heads inside their prey's rectum and eat them from the inside out?
That one I did know! Not the rectum part, but I watched vultures at our local zoo disembowel a cow, which was just as gross as it wounds. The zookeeper said they were bald so they didn't have to try to keep feathers free of guts.
Opossums are authentic. Especially George Jones.
A meme that popped up yesterday comes to mind- it’s not trauma dumping, it’s a funny story 😆 right haha 🥲
If you haven't already, I recommend "We should all know less about each other," published in the NY Times three years ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/01/opinion/facebook-social-media-problems.html
I really enjoyed the 600-word count. I was very concerned with my essay but I realized that anyone can read their 600 words and anyone can listen to 600 words. If I failed then at least I could get a lesson in and it would not be a big deal. I really enjoyed that word count. I always have so much fun!
Pond scum can be fun. It's what you make of it. I can tell all my friends that I was pond scum at my writing class and the kinds of friends I have would think that was so cool.
My worry has always been this regarding higher level graduate programs and so on: How does the teacher know if the student writers are simply “playing up to the teacher” by writing stories they will be praised for that is similar to that teachers style? How does everyone’s work stay true to who they are as writers? How can writers break a mold that is set within a group?
Short example: nude drawing class. Everyone is drawing the same body— but, everyone has their own style along with what they choose to draw on from that nude body. Some may only choose a segment of it to draw, some the whole body. As we hang up all our drawings in the wall from class to be critiqued— how do we know what’s truly “good?”
I think your style of writing is impeccable and earnest. It has depth and every word is chosen with intent. It’s masterful. I’ve also been learning from other students of Tom’s as well. I’ve been reading all the books you mention, which has been a phenomenal experience! But, now I have all this knowledge and I have writer’s block! Maybe, it’s like you say, “Take yourself for a walk.” After watching “Wildcat” that makes sense.
Thank you, Chuck.
In college, I took a beginning drawing class and my friend refused to draw the male model’s Dinka. All her portraits, a blank between the legs. An odd modesty, perhaps, but no big deal. Except at the time, I was going through my “everything must be balanced” phase. So to counter her gap, compelled you might say, I started drawing only the male model’s Dinka.
My metaphorical point is… maybe to prepare for the inevitable boor, there could always be a superstar ready to hop on stage afterwards? Who didn’t read their applause-guaranteed piece unless the crowd needed a chaser? If only the boor didn’t have feelings
The metaphor explained itself! Well done! And thank you for being the Dinka drawer. I was a breasts, hands and torso draw-er.
To copy the teacher's style seems nature. Everyone in Dangerous Writing went through that phase, after that the promising folks split off -- me to some isolation, Monica Drake to study with Joy Williams in Arizona -- eventually we came back with our own evolved "voice." Summer is perfect for that splitting off period.
Oh will we ever get the band back together to see how we all have grown?
I'm mostly joking. I just get all nostalgic about it when Thursdays come around. I don't miss all the driving.
I relate to that, Kerri. It's like I got all these shiny tools (minimalist techniques) and I know how to use them and they are all hung on the wall and when I go out there in the garage, I start appreciating them too much, feeling good about myself for knowing them, but then I forget to use them. Doh!
Hi Joe G! Miss you!
Hiya Cheap, been wondering where you were!
I've been real good kinda. Mr Greaves named me "Poet Bard of The Satanic Temple" so that's pretty cool. Other than that Ive just been a jerk a work and online and stuff. The usual. How are you doing? I also finished House of Leaves. It only took nearly a whole year.
The past few days I've been sick with a chest cold. I've gone through so many damn tissues. Hasn't been fun. I sound so dopey lol
I'm happy to hear they knighted you with the new fancy title of Poet Bard!
Oh my goodness. I hope it wasn't the covids. I'll dm you.
Nah, it's not COVID. I've had COVID before and that was WAAYY worse than this.
ooooh. well thats good.
Well shit…that’s a hard one.
What? Like you don't have an opinion.
Well it is something to think about.
You gave me a lot of stuff I gotta chew on.
Happy to hear The Cavern is back!
Honestly, I'm still stuck on that dude with the bad Hindsight story. I wanna know what he said that was so bad. Was he just boring? Did he read for too long? I'm very interested in the actions of this wicked woman.
I love and hate the Lish method. I love the fact that the boors would get shut down, saving people time. But also I'd hate it because I'd get shut down too. You would really have to present something grand.
One last thing, I was reading a previous Gloves Off and you stated that when someone throws an insult or remark at the protag, you said don't have them respond because it takes away tension. That's such a cool little thing!
And you're welcome, Chuck! Now you HAVE to get that perm.
I am also interested in the actions.
Regarding your comment on you being shut down too, if you allow me to ask this, did you ever received a punch in the chest? If yes, what did you do next? Remained down there, crying? No? 😃
I am pretty sure though you wouldn’t be among those to be shut down 😉
Oh, I've been there, reading into the hate. Mostly because I was too scared to stop. Amazing how a few minutes feels like an eternity in hell.
And you raised on your feet again stronger. I am not doing well when getting all the attention upon me but that is one more reason why I respect a lot those who can handle their emotions and ultimately "conquer" the crowd.
Thank you for the passion and energy you invest in promoting new talents. You are doing an incredible job and to be honest this page is among my favourites 🙏
Glad I could help. And when you finally pay off that building tension, your audience will go nuts with joy.
Yes.
It was just porn. The guy wrote bad porn and read it while to a room who was not there to hear hardcore tit-centric porn.
Oh jeez lol...was it one of those Men Writing Women moments? Did she breast boobily down the hallway?
LOLOLOLOL.
On the other hand, I could totally see using that line, "She breasted boobily down the hallway" as the voice of a character narrating the story in his own head. In like a stream-of-consciousness style? [shrug]
That'd be interesting to see in a story. All depends on execution.
Depends on what you are going for in the story. Sometimes I feel like leaning into the men writing women reddit group can be a benefit in some crass way.
Oh definitely! The first time I read bits of that kind of writing, I laughed my ass off. I was having a hell of a time. Until people started telling me how it's harmful and how I should rebuke it. But yeah if someone told a full story like that, I'd either laugh from the material or the reaction from the audience.
With Story Nights, there should also be an actual WORKSHOP. There does need to be a place where people can come read stories and bring in newbies. Writers do need to learn to be performers as well, that’s very important. But, a regular workshop is key for deeper dives and not just pandering to a crowd for laughs or shock.
Lish’s model would work for the workshops— but, Story Nights— that could be dangerous. Maybe, what if people paid to read? How would that sort writers?
Writers do deserve to be heard. But, determining what is worthy story wise to advance to the next level is a very tough decision. Having a writing topic and length will absolutely help. But, Story Nights and Workshops are totally different lessons to learn from as a writerly person.
Man— to hear Bourdain reading early writings from his first few novels— dang. That would have been king. I’m envious!
I was shocked when I heard Bourdain was in a class with Lish. A story I remember from Bourdain, he was a new chef and got burned. So he complained about it, asking for some cream and a band aid. And the other chefs gave him crap for it. Laughed at him. And then the head chef just cussed him out brutally. Bourdain described the head chef's hand as having a bunch of burns and scars and cuts and welts. And he said the head chef reached over and grabbed the handle of a scalding hot pan without making a face. Bourdain was humiliated.
I can't forget that story.
Boy, if that isn’t close to the kitchen/kiss on the hand scene in the “Fight Club” film, I don’t know what is.
I’ve been on a Bourdain high as of lately. Probably due to the show, “The Bear.”
Nice mention from Chuck!! You have always had a great way with words, questions, and digging deeper. I’d love to see you interviewing people in depth. You’re so good at it. Better than some journalists!
Suzy Vitello mentioned The Bear on her Substack and I watched a few episodes and I remember enjoying what was happening. I should get back into it.
I'm also pretty fond of celebrity chefs like Ramsay, Bourdain, and Marco Pierre White. I just love how Marco speaks about cooking with deep admiration and mastery.
And thank you! I always worry about being too annoying with my comments and questions though.
Suzy tool Lish's workshop.
You should ask her what Lish told her about her work. Pretty brutal.
Didn't get a chance to do that! But she said Lish told her to write about her vagina? If I remember correctly.
Weird. I just wrote something about this subject.
Bourdain? Or getting burned in the kitchen?
Burns. I also had no idea that Tony was in Lish's workshop. When you live in NYC for a while, it shrinks the planet a lot. The internet does too.
I love you.
Id preferred to get interrupted if I sucked. That sort of method would make me strive even harder to get better and weed out the people just trying to impress. I felt like the Portland Dance Studio Method was quite effective. My first cosplay story was pretty awful but I got a lot better by the time I hit 60 weeks. Thanks for letting me read. So who knows, I could be biased. The publishing world is no joke. Plenty of people only want to hear they will make it and their work is brilliant. Not every kid that plays T-ball can go to the world series and become a New York Times best selling author. I'm happy to write the best damn cosplay or sailor stories that I can, even if they are only for a friend to read.
Include everyone and let them read, but no babying. Treating adults with kid gloves is gross, and the practice has made many people very dysfunctional. We ain't made out of glass.
Now I really want to know what was in the evil female character story to make it so unnerving. I think it's helpful to get to have at least some of the stories in a workshop be poor quality for the learning experience of the audience and presenter.
I can only express my opinion as someone from the audience and my first thought in this regard is to ask for the mighty colosseum to open its gates and unleash the lions and the chariots of fire 😉😃.
Joke aside, my knowledges regarding how communism was implemented in Eastern European countries tell me that equality ends up making people lazy and demotivated. Performance is not compatible with equality no matter how you dress it up. Moreover, corporations in western society having powerful leaders with a vision did the extra miles that other companies having responsibility divided among participants did not manage to do.
That being said, my first question is: do you want for the public to assume the responsibility of selecting the most talented writers or should we rely on a higher authority for that? Which leads me to my second question: what should be the purpose of those nights? To identify new talents or to offer the opportunity for the newly discovered writers to get visibility and promotion?
I think that public is eternal regardless of culture and time. Roman public wanted to see the blood not warriors being cradled and my intuition tells me that many of the “warriors” you trained want the same 😁
I work in what we call in the UK the Third Sector. Mental health, offending, drugs and alcohol. There's two sayings that stuck with me from the start. 1) If you didn't write it down, it didn't happen 2) You're not a good worker until someone's complained about you. Point is we learn by mistakes and we can't effect a decent change until we have the realisation for ourselves. So we need that sinking feeling of, 'Oh, shit' to make us do things differently next time. So brutal critiques can only be a good thing for writing.
Lish's approach seems incredibly helpful--reminding writers fiction is about a relationship with a reader (engage me, acknowledge me or I'm cutting you off). But there's also brutal critiques in MFA workshops where you'd want to consider the source and the possible motivations.)
Very true. I've known people whose sport is simply to tear other people down. I guess it's all part of developing that extra layer of skin and deciding which critique is useful.
Case in point, I did a writing degree a long time ago and a tutor wrote on an (admittedly poor) submission of mine, "Do you want people to think you're funny? Or funnier than you are?" That burn took a lot of 2-4-1 student bar deals to heal.
So, I kind of view Story Night as “the gig” and workshop as “rehearsal.” But it’s amazing how many spectators truly enjoy watching rehearsals. It’s a chance for them to look behind the curtain and realize that what they perceive as magical talent is really more hard work and constant refinement. What if you hybridize it a bit? Have a set number of readers for each event, and have each of those readers bring enough pages for the group and yourself. The writer then gets the immediate feedback from the audience, plus more specific critiques from their colleagues. I also enjoy the prompt/page limit model, which I think helps with theme and pacing. Just my two cents on the matter. I’ll be happy to bring something out, however you end up running it. I’ve been working on reading to an audience. Yet another skill that requires practice. At least, for me it does.
I guess people showing promising signs with their writing getting priority reading over other group members can provide incentive for everyone else. Like, maybe if I listen and learn, I’ll get to that level. Then, going beyond that, maybe one day even literally Bob Ross tier . . .
P. S. Hey Chuck, is the UK publishing situation with “Shock Induction” all good? Asking because of the UK publication — or lack there off, rather — that happened with “Not Forever, but for Now” last year