RE: “ I don't trust my writing. Everything feels plagiaristic at this point.”
Same, but it’s getting better. I’m working with someone who is reading my work and giving me feedback and he’s also taken the time to read some of Chuck’s work even though it’s not a genre that interests him as much. His feedback has helped me to slowly find my own voice, as I’ve told him I really don’t want to come across as some Chuck Palahniuk copy cat fan boy. It’s hard though, when you find a writing style that meshes so well with your own thought patterns and imagination. It’s hard not to subconsciously mimic it.
One time I heard Keith Richards say something to the effect of ‘if you want to sound like The Rolling Stones, don’t listen to The Rolling Stones.’ He went on to explain that people should listen to the artists that they listened to. That quote really stuck with me. And that’s what’s been so nice about the reading list from Consider This. I’m late to the game when it comes to reading Chuck’s work. There are a lot of novels of his that I haven’t gotten to yet, but that’s because I decided to put it on pause and focus on the other writers he points to. As I work through the reading list I’m trying my best to find different things to steal from each author to put into my writing with the hopes of not getting caught.
A tip? It's okay to plagiarize, just steal from nonwriters. People are always fobbing off great anecdotes, and if they're not writers, those stories -- and the effective ways they're told -- are free game.
Chuck, did you use a typewriter when you started writing and if so, what kind? I have a modest collection and look for the same ones favorite authors used kind of like a good luck charm or something to consciously/subconsciously help me with my own work. Thanks for all the great posts - I am thoroughly enjoying all the info you're sharing and Greener Pastures!
Hello Chris. Back in college I got a deal on an IBM Selectric, a 60-pound electric monster with removable typeface balls. Colored avocado green with a baked enamel finish. After the first night I used it, I found a neighbor in our shared rooming house had posted a large sign on the inside of the front door. Something like, "To the User of the Giant Typewriter that Sounds Like a Bazooka with every Keystroke -- No Typing After Five P.M. or I Will Kill You." All handwritten notes after that. And I did my keyboarding in the computer lab late at night.
Sigh, last night I watched an 80s music video that showed people smoking cigarettes on the dance floor. Seems medieval.
Have you ever wondered that maybe you're such a big advocate for writing longhand because of this experience in college? And maybe the association to typing keys brings you back to this traumatic bazooka memory? Hmmm?
*puts the tip of a tobacco pipe in his mouth and nods at Chuck, sagely*
Actually... I began writing longhand at work and at the gym, both places where I didn't want to get caught or draw attention. And I could litter my notes with torque specifications so they'd look like "work."
(do people still keep those little weight-lifter notebooks? Where you record each day's weights/sets/reps? Seems so 80s)
Sad, guilty admission: After a particularly long. boring work meeting, my boss yelled at a coworker for not taking notes. The boss said, "Look at Palahniuk! He's constantly writing down notes!" What I was writing was 'Fight Club.'
The threats of physical violence sound like a formative experience. Thanks for the info and now I will keep my eye out for an avocado green Selectric!
I listened to the Rogan show interview. Do you write an entire first draft by hand or just up to the point where you feel like it's taking shape and composing directly on an electronic device is not a hindrance?
I have a Lettera 22 like Joan Didion used. I wrote a few words today in honor/remembrance of her.
Ah. Alas a Selectric would be a poor choice to take aboard an airplane. My favorite place to keyboard all my notes into a file is the front-row, window seat on a plane (with the bulkhead no one can recline their seat and smush my laptop. Second favorite is in a hotel bed beside a huge pot of coffee.
Using a manual typewriter on a plane sounds hilarious. THAT would be funny as hell. Hunter S. Thompson would do that.
Chuck, when you talk about metaphor, how stories should explore a relatable metaphor to get the reader to connect on a deeper level, and make them cry by having a character point out all the memories he'll lose between two paddles, how do you define that word? Metaphor. Is it synonymous with theme?
IT WAS SKIPPER'S SEAFOOD! And the commercial example was meant to demonstrate Minimalism, how to use the same elements in varied ways so they accrue meaning faster. The "ruthless exclusion" of all things that do not heighten the tension of the story. I.e. you can't put a running horse in a seafood commercial.
Good question. To me the metaphor is the "safe" thing that stands in for the thing I can't bear to look at. Horror dweebs tell me that the Universal Frankenstein films were successful because in World War I medical science saved men who'd have died in any previous war. The problem was... these severely disfigured young men had to rejoin society, and no one could bear to look at such mutilated faces on the street. The Frankenstein monster and to some extent the Phantom of the Opera acclimatized people to such faces. The movie monsters gave these veterans back their humanity in the public eye. So to me, the metaphor is that in-between symbol that allows me a gradual adjustment to a scary reality.
I don't think I can read The Great Gatsby again. I own a warped copy that I never returned when I was in high school since 2008. And there's two reasons why I have hard time reading that book. One, the language is often too pretentious-sounding for me to follow. And the other was about how it seemed like every dialogue attribution had an adverb. I'm kind of a stickler for that lol
Agreed. And I'd wager that the themes of disillusionment are impossible for teenagers to grasp. 'Gatsby' is a book taught by burnt-out middle aged teachers, to idealistic students who reject the overall message. As they should. The book smothers youthful dreams in their cradle, but later in life it clicks. And it's always a good lesson in writing tricks.
A secret? If you work in Minimalism (my "horses" here or themes are death and Christmas, that's it, no other elements) then the writing progresses from the specific to the general, and the story brings itself to a climax. Which sounds lurid phrased that way.
This is probably my favorite post so far. I’d asked a couple of questions about this and you hadn’t responded — but I took that as a cue that (hopefully) you’d be making a separate post elaborating more on this part of the process.
“Most of writing a first draft is the discovery of that broken heart. It’s only once we’ve discovered how the narrator’s heart was broken that we can go back and write a draft fully colored by that injury.”
Seriously might nail this to my wall or something as I put down my second story and go back to the first draft of my first story, now feeling less attached and rejuvenated; ready scrap what doesn’t fit and to cut and paste and sprinkle pain and joy together like peanut butter and jelly. The timing couldn’t be better. Best Christmas gift ever!
Terrific. There are so many topics I keep meaning to address. The trick is always finding the "way in" to the story or topic. And I'm glad I waited on this one because the Gatsby scene is so clearly a Christmas scene. As for "way in" or "angle" on a story, that's a future longish post of its own.
Ah yeah that makes sense. One of my favorite professors in college was an economist and his lectures were very effective because he would go into a long story about his life that would take up 90% of the class. Then at the end he would dissect the story as a metaphor for whichever economic theory he was teaching that day. It always made the material stick so much better because he could take a complex subject and make it relatable and simplified. I’m sure you probably have a long topic list. I bet this platform is really helpful for that type of thing too so that you can get a feel for what else people are interested in.
Christmas alert. I've just posted my December short story. Wouldn't it be fun to cobble together an anthology of Christmas ghost/horror stories? THAT would be amazing. I'll contact LitReactor and see if they can help organize the effort.
Chuck, I need your help remembering a quote from someone. You typed it in response to a comment and I don't know which post it's in. "Sex is good but sex with guilt is better."
Something to do with "sex with guilt." Do you know what quote I'm trying to remember?
I’m currently writing a piece based on a story a friend told me over the holidays about him and his friends setting out to kill a lamb when they were teenagers in order to “eat what you kill” but ended up brutally suffocating the animal as they taped its mouth shut and threw it in the trunk and it choked on its own vomit by the time they reached the forest.
And I find this method very helpful in mixing and matching bits of the story with different Choruses like “curiosity killed the cat” or a La Haine style quote “did you hear the one about the guy who walked to Hell? He just kept walking through doors that read “heavens this way””
RE: “ I don't trust my writing. Everything feels plagiaristic at this point.”
Same, but it’s getting better. I’m working with someone who is reading my work and giving me feedback and he’s also taken the time to read some of Chuck’s work even though it’s not a genre that interests him as much. His feedback has helped me to slowly find my own voice, as I’ve told him I really don’t want to come across as some Chuck Palahniuk copy cat fan boy. It’s hard though, when you find a writing style that meshes so well with your own thought patterns and imagination. It’s hard not to subconsciously mimic it.
One time I heard Keith Richards say something to the effect of ‘if you want to sound like The Rolling Stones, don’t listen to The Rolling Stones.’ He went on to explain that people should listen to the artists that they listened to. That quote really stuck with me. And that’s what’s been so nice about the reading list from Consider This. I’m late to the game when it comes to reading Chuck’s work. There are a lot of novels of his that I haven’t gotten to yet, but that’s because I decided to put it on pause and focus on the other writers he points to. As I work through the reading list I’m trying my best to find different things to steal from each author to put into my writing with the hopes of not getting caught.
A tip? It's okay to plagiarize, just steal from nonwriters. People are always fobbing off great anecdotes, and if they're not writers, those stories -- and the effective ways they're told -- are free game.
THIS. I have friends that have had long complex lives and tell me fascinating stories that I'm going to start swiping and fictionalizing.
A thief of moments or a voyeuristic scribe? You decide!
Oh dear. I hit the wrong button and the thing is published. To hell with it.
Those monstrous U.I. heathens. They must be dealt with appropriately,
Shhhhh, they're working in our favor ;D
Chuck, did you use a typewriter when you started writing and if so, what kind? I have a modest collection and look for the same ones favorite authors used kind of like a good luck charm or something to consciously/subconsciously help me with my own work. Thanks for all the great posts - I am thoroughly enjoying all the info you're sharing and Greener Pastures!
Hello Chris. Back in college I got a deal on an IBM Selectric, a 60-pound electric monster with removable typeface balls. Colored avocado green with a baked enamel finish. After the first night I used it, I found a neighbor in our shared rooming house had posted a large sign on the inside of the front door. Something like, "To the User of the Giant Typewriter that Sounds Like a Bazooka with every Keystroke -- No Typing After Five P.M. or I Will Kill You." All handwritten notes after that. And I did my keyboarding in the computer lab late at night.
Sigh, last night I watched an 80s music video that showed people smoking cigarettes on the dance floor. Seems medieval.
Have you ever wondered that maybe you're such a big advocate for writing longhand because of this experience in college? And maybe the association to typing keys brings you back to this traumatic bazooka memory? Hmmm?
*puts the tip of a tobacco pipe in his mouth and nods at Chuck, sagely*
Actually... I began writing longhand at work and at the gym, both places where I didn't want to get caught or draw attention. And I could litter my notes with torque specifications so they'd look like "work."
(do people still keep those little weight-lifter notebooks? Where you record each day's weights/sets/reps? Seems so 80s)
Sad, guilty admission: After a particularly long. boring work meeting, my boss yelled at a coworker for not taking notes. The boss said, "Look at Palahniuk! He's constantly writing down notes!" What I was writing was 'Fight Club.'
I'm wondering...has a co-worker ever asked to read your notes for a reference?
And then they come across a gem such as, "I really want to have your abortion."
The threats of physical violence sound like a formative experience. Thanks for the info and now I will keep my eye out for an avocado green Selectric!
I listened to the Rogan show interview. Do you write an entire first draft by hand or just up to the point where you feel like it's taking shape and composing directly on an electronic device is not a hindrance?
I have a Lettera 22 like Joan Didion used. I wrote a few words today in honor/remembrance of her.
Ah. Alas a Selectric would be a poor choice to take aboard an airplane. My favorite place to keyboard all my notes into a file is the front-row, window seat on a plane (with the bulkhead no one can recline their seat and smush my laptop. Second favorite is in a hotel bed beside a huge pot of coffee.
Using a manual typewriter on a plane sounds hilarious. THAT would be funny as hell. Hunter S. Thompson would do that.
Allegedly Eddie Vedder would fly with (and use during the flight) a Skyriter in a first class seat in the 90’s. Damn rock stars.
Looks like Santa came early this year.
*grins like the Grinch*
"I made quilts as fast as I could to keep my family warm, and as pretty as I could to keep my heart from breaking."-- A Pioneer Woman's Diary.
Hacker Ethic? What do you mean?
Ah yes! Yes! Very good.
This little humming bird and Lucien Greaves are writing a story lol. I'm so delighted. https://cheapcrassdevilworshiper.substack.com/p/mr-greaves-jar
To be fair, Maugham and Forester are much better than anything streaming. Ashenden is still the standard of a late and slow gut punch.
Chuck, when you talk about metaphor, how stories should explore a relatable metaphor to get the reader to connect on a deeper level, and make them cry by having a character point out all the memories he'll lose between two paddles, how do you define that word? Metaphor. Is it synonymous with theme?
IT WAS SKIPPER'S SEAFOOD! And the commercial example was meant to demonstrate Minimalism, how to use the same elements in varied ways so they accrue meaning faster. The "ruthless exclusion" of all things that do not heighten the tension of the story. I.e. you can't put a running horse in a seafood commercial.
Good question. To me the metaphor is the "safe" thing that stands in for the thing I can't bear to look at. Horror dweebs tell me that the Universal Frankenstein films were successful because in World War I medical science saved men who'd have died in any previous war. The problem was... these severely disfigured young men had to rejoin society, and no one could bear to look at such mutilated faces on the street. The Frankenstein monster and to some extent the Phantom of the Opera acclimatized people to such faces. The movie monsters gave these veterans back their humanity in the public eye. So to me, the metaphor is that in-between symbol that allows me a gradual adjustment to a scary reality.
FYI I use terms such as 'dweebs' 'geeks' 'nerds' as an insider, included in each of the aforementioned groups.
I don't think I can read The Great Gatsby again. I own a warped copy that I never returned when I was in high school since 2008. And there's two reasons why I have hard time reading that book. One, the language is often too pretentious-sounding for me to follow. And the other was about how it seemed like every dialogue attribution had an adverb. I'm kind of a stickler for that lol
Agreed. And I'd wager that the themes of disillusionment are impossible for teenagers to grasp. 'Gatsby' is a book taught by burnt-out middle aged teachers, to idealistic students who reject the overall message. As they should. The book smothers youthful dreams in their cradle, but later in life it clicks. And it's always a good lesson in writing tricks.
This was, oddly, a comforting thing to read in the middle of the night. Thanks.
Your scattered mind always pulls it together, Chuck. Merry Deathmas, my friend. Thanks for your art all these years!
A secret? If you work in Minimalism (my "horses" here or themes are death and Christmas, that's it, no other elements) then the writing progresses from the specific to the general, and the story brings itself to a climax. Which sounds lurid phrased that way.
Yeah, I think we're going to need you to share The Wreck of the F. Scott Fitzgerald now.
Sure! No.
I will record and post it. I guarantee the rendition will not be good.
Great stuff! Thanks for sharing the Fitzgerald trick you hinted at before!
This is probably my favorite post so far. I’d asked a couple of questions about this and you hadn’t responded — but I took that as a cue that (hopefully) you’d be making a separate post elaborating more on this part of the process.
“Most of writing a first draft is the discovery of that broken heart. It’s only once we’ve discovered how the narrator’s heart was broken that we can go back and write a draft fully colored by that injury.”
Seriously might nail this to my wall or something as I put down my second story and go back to the first draft of my first story, now feeling less attached and rejuvenated; ready scrap what doesn’t fit and to cut and paste and sprinkle pain and joy together like peanut butter and jelly. The timing couldn’t be better. Best Christmas gift ever!
Terrific. There are so many topics I keep meaning to address. The trick is always finding the "way in" to the story or topic. And I'm glad I waited on this one because the Gatsby scene is so clearly a Christmas scene. As for "way in" or "angle" on a story, that's a future longish post of its own.
Ah yeah that makes sense. One of my favorite professors in college was an economist and his lectures were very effective because he would go into a long story about his life that would take up 90% of the class. Then at the end he would dissect the story as a metaphor for whichever economic theory he was teaching that day. It always made the material stick so much better because he could take a complex subject and make it relatable and simplified. I’m sure you probably have a long topic list. I bet this platform is really helpful for that type of thing too so that you can get a feel for what else people are interested in.
Exactly. First dramatize, then dramatize, then summarize. Abstracts don't stick.
Christmas alert. I've just posted my December short story. Wouldn't it be fun to cobble together an anthology of Christmas ghost/horror stories? THAT would be amazing. I'll contact LitReactor and see if they can help organize the effort.
.
Chuck, I need your help remembering a quote from someone. You typed it in response to a comment and I don't know which post it's in. "Sex is good but sex with guilt is better."
Something to do with "sex with guilt." Do you know what quote I'm trying to remember?
It was Nora Ephron, I think from her novel 'Heartburn' but it was her. "Sex is sex. But sex plus guilt is good sex."
Yes! Thank you.
I’m currently writing a piece based on a story a friend told me over the holidays about him and his friends setting out to kill a lamb when they were teenagers in order to “eat what you kill” but ended up brutally suffocating the animal as they taped its mouth shut and threw it in the trunk and it choked on its own vomit by the time they reached the forest.
And I find this method very helpful in mixing and matching bits of the story with different Choruses like “curiosity killed the cat” or a La Haine style quote “did you hear the one about the guy who walked to Hell? He just kept walking through doors that read “heavens this way””