Consider that the chorus acts a a buffer, but a chorus is also a call-back to earlier events. And it's a way to resolve an unresolvable moment. Like saying, "Let's agree to disagree."
Thank you! That seems to be the one. Knowing she read the names from an off-stage poster, I can see that now. By the time my friend, Mike Sullivan, had seen the routine Pia Zadora had entered the mix. Perhaps the guest list kept growing?
Your Pointillism examples get me to remember the Liquid Television show "Aeon Flux." The show almost always made a point to drop the viewer right into the middle of the story. It rarely gave clues as to how the situation/story began. I always thought that was fascinating because I quickly realized I didn't care at all about where I was dropped in the story as a viewer because the writers immediately hit the ground running and propelled the viewer forward with brilliant animation, action, characters, and story telling. It was a very compelling show.
The chant also reminds me on one of my current favorite skits about the American Bar in Germany that no longer features "zee Lynard Skynard flag" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMKCt3Itc8A LOLOL
The tangent is a way to particularize something so that it reveals an intimate part of the character. For example, "It's that heaviness you feel like after you've secretly had your girlfriend's cat put down but tell her it ran away."
The tirade and an emotion-driven speech that expresses bottled-up tension.
OK I fixed the sentence and I used your tirade example for my most recent essay. I took out the sentence: "You don’t even have a proper astroturfed lawn like the rest of us! " and replaced it with:
"You two look like the degenerate homeless we see all around now-a-days. Our Lord and Savior was no disgraceful, homeless, low-life who slept in the street. Jesus was a king! What would the community think?
Now there’s the keys to the car, alright. That’s the best lesson yet!! Thank you. The other was learning about the clock in “They Shoot Horses, Don’t They?” That lesson was life altering for whatever it is that I write or try to.
I was going to ask what lesson I needed to learn through reading “Harvest.” I’ve never read anything like that before. It was like the story was a bomb and then, an unarmed bomb— but told us why it became a bomb. Hempel— just WOW.
Glad you liked the post. The true joy of Pointillism is getting each small segment perfect, and not being forced to tie them together as Modernism does. If you craft one perfect stanza right each day or so, you have a story that rises from your subconscious.
Another great aspect of the Pointillist story is that you can compile a critical mass of small details/moments. Like creating your own jigsaw puzzle pieces. Once you have a smattering you can begin to organize them by themes. The story emerges from a dozen different centers. Dazzling.
The final stage a writer can reach is basically Kaa from The Jungle Book. They read out their lyrical work to a crowd and the people in the audience listen in a trance with their eyes swirling in rainbow colours. (Or so I’ve heard.)
So basically what you're saying is, we should go get our heads kicked in, or find a way to spend a bit of time in a coma. And after that, all our writing will come out great.
Thanks. I'll check it out. I have a question I've been wondering for a while, I'll ask it now, in case you happen to see it and have the time to answer.
Where do you stand on fiction that goes against the principles of minimalism? As an example, I'll use Amos Oz, just because I often find myself engrossed in his stories. But who uses a lot of thought verbs, and describes everything down to the most minute detail. I just wonder if you also read and enjoy that kind of literary fiction, or if it bores you in a way.
I can stomach any style if it keeps a character in action. When the writer lingers too long in thought or lineage -- the Anne Rice novels had to given so much lineage -- I begin to scan for physical verbs. I need to grab hold of a "step" or "walked" or "said" that puts me in a physical scene. Once I'm flipping pages, starved for a physical verb, I'm hating on the author.
Consider that when a narrator's not in scene, the narration becomes summary and opinion, and neither have the hypnotic quality of physical action. And if -- after fifty pages of no physical actions -- the author resolves the plot with dialog... well, I want to hunt down and shoot the author.
The stripper needs to work the pole. Not just strut out and say, "I have a penis in my pants, trust me." I'm like, "No, you need to hook a leg and spin on that pole some."
Are drive-ins gone everywhere else in the US? In New England there’s still multiple still functioning Drive-ins. In fact during the spring and summer they’re loaded with kids playing frisbee and screaming in circles. What they’re really losing, and watching in real time is malls and regular theaters.
Ah-ha! I can answer this. As a man with a 20something son and a teenage daughter I can say just as a generational change I was prepared to accept one day they’d do it with or without “permission.” So their “extracurricular activities” are permitted in the house so long as it’s safe and quiet. (Which kinda takes the fun out of speaking around, doesn’t it?)
Quite a few other parents I know also have this sentiment. Especially left-leaning and liberal parents.
Going out your buddy's window and walking over to the playground at 1a.m.... Or once you can drive and have wheels, finding a place to "park". And then the cops showed up. Every. Freakin. Time. "Sir, do you have any pants on?" "No." "Can you put some on, please, and come out here. Miss, I assume you're here of your own free will?" "Excuse me?" "I assume you're here of your own free will?" "Oh. Yes!"
If the traditionally taboo is no longer taboo, what is taboo?
This is freaking amazing. I can't believe I get to learn from someone who's dedicated his life to the craft of storytelling, analyzed it in every format, become an expert expert, then freely shares everything he's learned and continues to learn every day. I feel super blessed. Thank you.
Just want to stress that everything is trial and error. Let's try to recognize what works intuitively in oral storytelling, then mimic those effects for our own stories. That's the ultimate revenge on loud talkers aboard the bus. You can steal their methods.
I hear you, thank you. Oh I steal from everybody! A homeless guy told me once that you can't steal from the homeless because they'll steal it back. I stole that sentence.
I haven’t lived in Boston for many years, but I’m pretty sure I know which bar the Good Will Hunting scene was filmed in, and it was (obviously) never that quiet. Too many frat bros, though. There was a heavy metal bar that served food VERY late, down near the Charles, that was where the cool kids went.
Thanks for all the excellent tips - I love pointillism. Amy Hempel is a master - you both are. Makes me wonder if I should walk out in traffic and get hit and hopefully survive and become a master writer, too. Or not.
Thanks awful damn much, Chuck, for reading it to the group! Sorry I had to leave early. I'm knocked flat at the response and so glad folks liked it. It was a kick to write as a young Charles Manson, as you can more than imagine!
Note, that if elongated sentences depict clear actions, the reader will stay engaged. The trick is to find those devices that give a touchstone or rest while still holding together the run-on sentence.
Read the clarification, so be it, type furiously with the first linkage that comes to mind, so be it, check to see if youre doing it correctly, so be it, its not quite right, so be it, but I get the idea, sobeit.
I love knowing the why and nuts and bolts behind your work that we can learn to apply and try out. Makes me suspicious there’s a paralysis by analysis issue in my writing as it draws me in so. And referencing things like visual art to make it concrete translates so well.
I had the same problem for several weeks because I was too focused on fitting together the horizontal plot at the end. So I wrote quick and dirty placeholder chapters, and went back to the beginning. That move has worked so far.
Off topic: Read Supercommunicators. Turns out that being the first person in a group to say something that may be stupid doesn't only give permission to everyone else to risk looking silly. It is a step toward cohesion. When a "Supercommunicator" is present, everyones brains fire in the same way. Seems to me that a supercommunicator is just someone who values connection over status.
I love that! It reminds me of so many work meetings where nothing got done, simply because no one wanted to admit they understood nothing the presenter said.
Got to some parts of the book I don't care for, but I'm a big fan of the overall message. Already altering the way I speak with people because of it. Asking them to elaborate, and asking how they feel about the anecdotes they share.
Im trying, and failing, to curse less. Would like to be a bit less coarse, but thats difficult for a grown up, barefoot, kool aid mouthed trailer park kid.
Similar to “choruses”?
- Sorry Mom. Sorry God.
-
Consider that the chorus acts a a buffer, but a chorus is also a call-back to earlier events. And it's a way to resolve an unresolvable moment. Like saying, "Let's agree to disagree."
Absolutely brilliant. Fantastic piece, Chuck!
Gosh, I hadn't thought of the Anne Bancroft skit in decades. I hope it survives somewhere.
Is this the one you’re referring to? https://youtu.be/WdagPyHgfFg
Thank you! That seems to be the one. Knowing she read the names from an off-stage poster, I can see that now. By the time my friend, Mike Sullivan, had seen the routine Pia Zadora had entered the mix. Perhaps the guest list kept growing?
But thanks!
My mother says my mother-in-law looks like Anne Bancroft.
Golly, what a giant lesson, Mr Palahniuk! I know what I'm doing for the next three hours. My goodness.
Your Pointillism examples get me to remember the Liquid Television show "Aeon Flux." The show almost always made a point to drop the viewer right into the middle of the story. It rarely gave clues as to how the situation/story began. I always thought that was fascinating because I quickly realized I didn't care at all about where I was dropped in the story as a viewer because the writers immediately hit the ground running and propelled the viewer forward with brilliant animation, action, characters, and story telling. It was a very compelling show.
The chant also reminds me on one of my current favorite skits about the American Bar in Germany that no longer features "zee Lynard Skynard flag" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMKCt3Itc8A LOLOL
As I read this I think the "tirade" & "tangent" device are extremely similar. Maybe the "tangent" is more personal? Interesting.
The tangent is a way to particularize something so that it reveals an intimate part of the character. For example, "It's that heaviness you feel like after you've secretly had your girlfriend's cat put down but tell her it ran away."
The tirade and an emotion-driven speech that expresses bottled-up tension.
I found another story that does the listing like no one's business...It's so good. Great story too. I think the music is just lovely! Joe was great live too! https://www.kcrw.com/culture/shows/joe-frank-return-engagement/an-enterprising-man
OK I fixed the sentence and I used your tirade example for my most recent essay. I took out the sentence: "You don’t even have a proper astroturfed lawn like the rest of us! " and replaced it with:
"You two look like the degenerate homeless we see all around now-a-days. Our Lord and Savior was no disgraceful, homeless, low-life who slept in the street. Jesus was a king! What would the community think?
Now there’s the keys to the car, alright. That’s the best lesson yet!! Thank you. The other was learning about the clock in “They Shoot Horses, Don’t They?” That lesson was life altering for whatever it is that I write or try to.
I was going to ask what lesson I needed to learn through reading “Harvest.” I’ve never read anything like that before. It was like the story was a bomb and then, an unarmed bomb— but told us why it became a bomb. Hempel— just WOW.
Glad you liked the post. The true joy of Pointillism is getting each small segment perfect, and not being forced to tie them together as Modernism does. If you craft one perfect stanza right each day or so, you have a story that rises from your subconscious.
Another great aspect of the Pointillist story is that you can compile a critical mass of small details/moments. Like creating your own jigsaw puzzle pieces. Once you have a smattering you can begin to organize them by themes. The story emerges from a dozen different centers. Dazzling.
That bar in southie is actually being sold this month. L Street Tavern
Thanks!
The final stage a writer can reach is basically Kaa from The Jungle Book. They read out their lyrical work to a crowd and the people in the audience listen in a trance with their eyes swirling in rainbow colours. (Or so I’ve heard.)
Wah?! But Kipling. Kipling is forbidden. Imperialist.
Ah, imperialism. A most beloved British tradition.
So basically what you're saying is, we should go get our heads kicked in, or find a way to spend a bit of time in a coma. And after that, all our writing will come out great.
OK, I'm on it!
I think people on this ‘stack should meet up in pairs and smash their heads together like rams. Two birds one stone and all that.
I'm open to giving that a try.
Results may vary. As they say on TV commercials.
Don't worry, I won't try and sue you.
All joking aside, I found this post very helpful. Thank you as always for the wisdom. Much appreciated.
Take a good look at "Tumble Home." It's a pointillist novella and it makes the magic look easy.
Thanks. I'll check it out. I have a question I've been wondering for a while, I'll ask it now, in case you happen to see it and have the time to answer.
Where do you stand on fiction that goes against the principles of minimalism? As an example, I'll use Amos Oz, just because I often find myself engrossed in his stories. But who uses a lot of thought verbs, and describes everything down to the most minute detail. I just wonder if you also read and enjoy that kind of literary fiction, or if it bores you in a way.
I can stomach any style if it keeps a character in action. When the writer lingers too long in thought or lineage -- the Anne Rice novels had to given so much lineage -- I begin to scan for physical verbs. I need to grab hold of a "step" or "walked" or "said" that puts me in a physical scene. Once I'm flipping pages, starved for a physical verb, I'm hating on the author.
Consider that when a narrator's not in scene, the narration becomes summary and opinion, and neither have the hypnotic quality of physical action. And if -- after fifty pages of no physical actions -- the author resolves the plot with dialog... well, I want to hunt down and shoot the author.
The stripper needs to work the pole. Not just strut out and say, "I have a penis in my pants, trust me." I'm like, "No, you need to hook a leg and spin on that pole some."
Very informative answer, thank you, Sir. I feel very similarly to you on this question. Interesting to hear it articulated.
Are drive-ins gone everywhere else in the US? In New England there’s still multiple still functioning Drive-ins. In fact during the spring and summer they’re loaded with kids playing frisbee and screaming in circles. What they’re really losing, and watching in real time is malls and regular theaters.
None hereabouts. Which begs the question "Where do teens have sex?"
Ah-ha! I can answer this. As a man with a 20something son and a teenage daughter I can say just as a generational change I was prepared to accept one day they’d do it with or without “permission.” So their “extracurricular activities” are permitted in the house so long as it’s safe and quiet. (Which kinda takes the fun out of speaking around, doesn’t it?)
Quite a few other parents I know also have this sentiment. Especially left-leaning and liberal parents.
Oh dear. But my friends with young adult kids have the same policy. Puts the idea of a slumber party in a new light.
Something I wrote recently had scene with the parents walking in on a slumber party of all boys just like that.
Another generational change: being gay and acceptance of it has kinda sucked the fun out of sneaking around.
Going out your buddy's window and walking over to the playground at 1a.m.... Or once you can drive and have wheels, finding a place to "park". And then the cops showed up. Every. Freakin. Time. "Sir, do you have any pants on?" "No." "Can you put some on, please, and come out here. Miss, I assume you're here of your own free will?" "Excuse me?" "I assume you're here of your own free will?" "Oh. Yes!"
If the traditionally taboo is no longer taboo, what is taboo?
Cheap Airbnbs in grotty Northern towns.
This is freaking amazing. I can't believe I get to learn from someone who's dedicated his life to the craft of storytelling, analyzed it in every format, become an expert expert, then freely shares everything he's learned and continues to learn every day. I feel super blessed. Thank you.
Just want to stress that everything is trial and error. Let's try to recognize what works intuitively in oral storytelling, then mimic those effects for our own stories. That's the ultimate revenge on loud talkers aboard the bus. You can steal their methods.
I hear you, thank you. Oh I steal from everybody! A homeless guy told me once that you can't steal from the homeless because they'll steal it back. I stole that sentence.
I haven’t lived in Boston for many years, but I’m pretty sure I know which bar the Good Will Hunting scene was filmed in, and it was (obviously) never that quiet. Too many frat bros, though. There was a heavy metal bar that served food VERY late, down near the Charles, that was where the cool kids went.
Thanks for all the excellent tips - I love pointillism. Amy Hempel is a master - you both are. Makes me wonder if I should walk out in traffic and get hit and hopefully survive and become a master writer, too. Or not.
Tom! Your story rocked two weeks ago. It was a joy to read. Just so you know, people loved it.
Thanks awful damn much, Chuck, for reading it to the group! Sorry I had to leave early. I'm knocked flat at the response and so glad folks liked it. It was a kick to write as a young Charles Manson, as you can more than imagine!
So here for your commitment to the cause, Tom. Inspiring haha
I was trying to reply to the traffic comment :’)
Would elongated sentences scare some readers off?
Im guessing that this would be used sparingly between curt, easy to read prose.
And I do throw in a Cormac sentence with lots of ands and no commas every once in a while to vary the rhythm.
Note, that if elongated sentences depict clear actions, the reader will stay engaged. The trick is to find those devices that give a touchstone or rest while still holding together the run-on sentence.
Read the clarification, so be it, type furiously with the first linkage that comes to mind, so be it, check to see if youre doing it correctly, so be it, its not quite right, so be it, but I get the idea, sobeit.
I love knowing the why and nuts and bolts behind your work that we can learn to apply and try out. Makes me suspicious there’s a paralysis by analysis issue in my writing as it draws me in so. And referencing things like visual art to make it concrete translates so well.
Thank you.
I had the same problem for several weeks because I was too focused on fitting together the horizontal plot at the end. So I wrote quick and dirty placeholder chapters, and went back to the beginning. That move has worked so far.
Off topic: Read Supercommunicators. Turns out that being the first person in a group to say something that may be stupid doesn't only give permission to everyone else to risk looking silly. It is a step toward cohesion. When a "Supercommunicator" is present, everyones brains fire in the same way. Seems to me that a supercommunicator is just someone who values connection over status.
I love that! It reminds me of so many work meetings where nothing got done, simply because no one wanted to admit they understood nothing the presenter said.
I'll send my copy after the second read.
And that situation reminds me of the story Im working on, and Matt's work, and an HST quote.
"A man who procrastinates in his choosing will inevitably have his choice made for him by circumstance."
Hunter S. Thompson
I love the reframe of super communicator. Makes me feel better about my er, um style haha going to read that
That publisher should put me on the payroll. Been selling it to everyone. Bought 2 copies for friends in addition to mine.
Ahhhh a fellow promoter personality. Hey! You rock 🥂
I can't help but champion the things I love.
Got to some parts of the book I don't care for, but I'm a big fan of the overall message. Already altering the way I speak with people because of it. Asking them to elaborate, and asking how they feel about the anecdotes they share.
Haven't tried asking any deep questions yet.
Is this why I swear/use profanity around people?
No. You curse to scare off the stupid people. It doesnt work.
You think? I always figured it was a kind of icebreaker.
My bad, I was projecting.
Im trying, and failing, to curse less. Would like to be a bit less coarse, but thats difficult for a grown up, barefoot, kool aid mouthed trailer park kid.
F bombs away.
Ricotta cock is why I stopped eating seed oils.