How many others were disappointed to scroll down and not find a photo of Chuck in that dress? Ah, well… the photo in my head is probably better anyway.
When I’ve heard you speak about liminal and liminoid events I’ve also heard you talk about the third place. Can a third place often play a role in these types of events? Do you think bowling alleys are a good example of the third place? (Especially one that came and went?) If a story is trying to invent a third place, what elements must absolutely be present for it to work?
By "third place" I assume you mean a place other than work and home. A church, for example, or a gym. The business model for Starbucks was to be the third place for people to hang out. To me the ideal third place would unite people with a mutual passion. A place where they could pursue that passion while maintaining a social circle. It would allow people to present a truer self than they can at work. I'd push you to base a third place on an activity that might occur almost anywhere -- like how the Cacophony Society held events everywhere, legal and illegal. If you tie too closely to one place you risk being bogged down in architecture and dialog. If your third place is based on action, in varied settings, your story will be more engaging.
Perfect. That gives me a good idea on how to go about creating that environment. I’m working on a social activity where the protagonist sort of introduces something and a group of people run with it and the idea is that he’s not going to fully understand what they are doing or why until the third act. If you have any thoughts or suggestions on sort of baiting the reader without overdoing it to the point of exhaustion, please let me know. Do I need to give little payouts about what’s happening along the way? Or can I just save it all up for one big landslide of realization? I’d prefer it to be a big landslide. Maybe use some misdirection as fake payouts as the story goes on?
Is there a reference site or article you'd recommend to dig into this liminal/liminoid, home/work/third place idea you both are talking about? I'm intrigued, but don't think I'm understanding how the terminology is being used. Thanks.
I completely understand, sitting for a whole movie with your back going out isn’t a fun one. You were missed, but there’s always next time. We saw Herold and Maude, it ruled. The beginning where they meet at funerals reminded me of Marla and Tyler meeting in support groups.
Dang. And just like that a memory came squirting out of my mind grapes: I had my own liminal ritual and maybe it needs to be the basis of a novel. Hmmmmmmmm
I'm currently using my short story to create outrageous memorials for as many folks as I can. Mr Greaves said "Thank you. I never thought I would read this." When I asked for his help writing his most outrageous memorial on twitter, I didn't think for a second he actually write back and want to participate! I hope to get a few more people interested because it is hilarious and very fun to write. Stuffing ashes into glass dildos and writing about body farms...I think they call this type of writing cathartic. Liminal ceremonies allow for a cathartic release as well. The red dress...Sounds fantastic and fun Mr. Palahniuk. https://cheapcrassdevilworshiper.substack.com/p/mr-greaves-jar
If someone were to perhaps write about your most outrageous memorial plans...what would you have in mind Mr. Palahniuk? Besides forcing your class to eat your eggnog grave ice cream Sir?
We're gonna have TONS of blowup dolls. We'll read Guts and have a dunk tank so that someone can pearl dive live. And all the friends Chuck has betrayed by telling their stories will be in the audience. We bring out Chuck's students dressed in salmon costumes and they will jump against the bereaved. For Chuck's memorial cards, there has to be a different typo on each one.
I shouldn't be having this much fun typing these things lol
I hope you had a chance to read the excerpt I added to my Uber for Urns essay, which rolls out the details of your eggnog ice cream Sir. :P I hope it's fit for your taste Sir.
I will handwrite dirty haikus on each of the dinner napkins accompanied by little wiener illustrations. Each dirty haiku will be based on Mr. Palahniuk's books, essays, or interviews. I've already put Mr. Greaves' ashes in a glass dildo and Keith Richards already snorted his dad's ashes. We will put at least 3 pounds Mr. Palahniuk's ashes into a giant wiener piñata and start swinging with wild abandon while listening to Hank Williams. The average weight of cremated ashes is around 5-8 pounds so we will have a couple pounds left over for guests to incorporate into their very own clay sculpture to take home. We will reserve a cup of ashes to stick into that lovely red box he posted about a few weeks ago. To be continued...
Speaking of inventing rules and rituals, I've had this story idea circulating in my head. It's about Puppy Play. It's been bothering me because I don't know who to put in the puppy costume. The guy or the girl. But I know there are rules to how a dog should behave. Obey commands, walk on all fours, cannot speak but bark, etc.
You talked about Marla's backstory involving Puppy Play, so I take it you did some research. In one particular video on YouTube, someone interviewed this guy puppy. And he said a line so heartbreaking. He said something along the lines of...when you're a dog, everyone loves you.
I think that there is something sad about liminal spaces based on power imbalance. It's the one place where you can break all codes and everything is still based on dominance and submission. At least in a mosh pit you're sharing your pain.
I think you're pretty safe. The Puppy Play is usually pretty tame. But as far as all the other stuff, you should probably clear your search history before the wife needs to find a new recipe lol
I just started Choke and it reminds me of the character remembering the first time he choked. Afterwards he was held, he was loved, everyone paid attention to him...His choking becoming a ritual. A way for him to feel whole.
In social situations, I remain very quiet and use active listening while dressed very well. Always remember to pepper in a couple of sincere compliments and BOOM. Everyone just automatically assumes I'm insanely more intelligent and nicer than I really am and I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not. I let them do the pretending. What about you Mr. Palahniuk?
Eye contact. As a reporter I found that if I held someone's gaze they'd eventually reveal something interesting and vulnerable. Also paraphrasing things back to a speaker as proof that I'm paying attention.
But paying sincere, intelligent compliments is a rare skill, anymore. Bravo to you.
It always neat to the see the surprising origin of something - how a chain of miscommunication/misunderstanding spreads. “‘Adjustment Day’? Don’t you mean, ‘A Judgement Day’?”
Interestingly enough, I created a liminoid event in the narrative of my first published short story - a ”suicide trend”. I guess nothing beats a good “action assimilation” structure. (Which I guess is the vicarious appeal of most literature in one form or another.)
Pretty much. I was referring to when (side) characters within a fictional narrative participate in an activity - be that fight clubs, party crashing, etc - and the activity has structure, rules or something that can be recognised as a replication of an action that has been previously performed by someone.
"What are the proverbial actions performed by characters in the gospels if not the archetypal method of trying to promote particular forms of action assimilation?" said the scholar, really hoping that the listeners would pick up on his coined term at the end of the claim. He had had it copyrighted and so it was now just a matter of waiting.
Stellar post! Coming from the Pacific Northwest I totally related to your description of Long Beach (although I'm not as concerned with creating an offense as you - that is a very accurate assessment) Absolutely brilliant way of bringing the red dress and glass floats together and my favorite post by far. Totally has me looking for "reinvented ritual" in my own experinces. Thanks again, Chuck!
Thank you! And I had a house in Oysterville for years so I'm just as redneck as the rest. Fyi, Oysterville is as creepy as anything created by Steve King.
My favorite Steven King short starts out by explaining why you should never turn down back roads in Oregon if there are no telephone poles. Words to live by in half the places I've lived in the PNW :)
Point of order: there is a distinctly different flavor to what we call "redneck" up here, and what qualifies to wear the badge in the southern states. My brother and I got into a big debate over it one day when we were teens, because we always considered ourselves rednecks until Jeff Foxworthy redefined it. We tried to come up with a better label that was more Oregon. "Mountain boys" sounds too much like hillbilly. "Oregonites" sounded too much like a lumberjack religious denomination. After days of trying on new monikers we finally settled right back on redneck. Whenever the word comes up in conversation we still give each other a knowing wink.
To be more exact: Depict groups. Since people read alone, allow them membership in a fictional group of people. Give them the companionship that's missing at the present moment in their lives.
These liminoid events are interesting. Can this event be considered as such? I remember a bit of trouble from my old childhood neighborhood. A couple times a week, a bunch of us ( 9 and 10 year olds and some were 11 to 13) would gather to buy this extreme lemon scented candy ( now it's out of the market), and eat 5 or 6 pieces at once. It made us aggressive as we couldn't endure the sour taste. When no one was looking, we'd wreck havock on every coffee chop near. Breaking every glass, tables and chairs which were placed outside. We did it so quickly, the waiters come out gobsmacked, while we are roaring with laughter on the far corner of the street. It continued for weeks but, this one time, one of the older kids ( He was prob 13) got caught by a super skinny mustachioed waiter and I swear he literally hanged him from his legs upside down and beat him. We stopped doing it that day.
Are you aware of the trend for chewing very tough gum? Young men are chewing several sticks at once to build up their masseter muscles and give themselves a stronger-looking jawline.
There is this Italian model who worked his jaw to an extreme Gigachad jaw proportion. What makes this interesting, is that I noticed in the last 6 years at least, a lot of young men in their early to mid 20s want to be Chad Thundercock. Who is some sort of a new father figure type to emulate, Tyler Durden on 150-mg of steroids, with an aim that isn't on a project mayhem kinda thing but, on nailing chicks, self-improvement and embracing the system.
I keep having this recurring dream where I'm reincarnated as Mitch Hedberg, and Chuck keeps asking us probing questions at a lecture. The one I remember most is when he asked me "What's the one alcohol you'll never drink again?" I said, "That's easy... Rubbing."
Just found this on twitter! I remember you talked about brown diamonds "chocolate diamonds". WWD calls them "Dishwater diamonds" and how they are bigger than ever! It goes on to further state that a diamond with an inclusion or odd color gives the diamond a character and a personalization not found in a flawless diamond. Great read Mr. Palahniuk! https://wwd.com/accessories-news/jewelry/dishwater-diamonds-engagement-ring-trend-brown-grey-stones-1235023046/
Ha! Yeah I've never understood the appeal of jewelry. Except for Alexandrite. I'm inexplicably obsessed with looking that that particular gem. It changes colors for goodness sake! I turn into a 2 year old whenever I see it. LOL
How many others were disappointed to scroll down and not find a photo of Chuck in that dress? Ah, well… the photo in my head is probably better anyway.
Would like to see that photo for sure!
Agree.
There was a single Polaroid. If I find it I will post it. Not pretty.
When I’ve heard you speak about liminal and liminoid events I’ve also heard you talk about the third place. Can a third place often play a role in these types of events? Do you think bowling alleys are a good example of the third place? (Especially one that came and went?) If a story is trying to invent a third place, what elements must absolutely be present for it to work?
By "third place" I assume you mean a place other than work and home. A church, for example, or a gym. The business model for Starbucks was to be the third place for people to hang out. To me the ideal third place would unite people with a mutual passion. A place where they could pursue that passion while maintaining a social circle. It would allow people to present a truer self than they can at work. I'd push you to base a third place on an activity that might occur almost anywhere -- like how the Cacophony Society held events everywhere, legal and illegal. If you tie too closely to one place you risk being bogged down in architecture and dialog. If your third place is based on action, in varied settings, your story will be more engaging.
Perfect. That gives me a good idea on how to go about creating that environment. I’m working on a social activity where the protagonist sort of introduces something and a group of people run with it and the idea is that he’s not going to fully understand what they are doing or why until the third act. If you have any thoughts or suggestions on sort of baiting the reader without overdoing it to the point of exhaustion, please let me know. Do I need to give little payouts about what’s happening along the way? Or can I just save it all up for one big landslide of realization? I’d prefer it to be a big landslide. Maybe use some misdirection as fake payouts as the story goes on?
Is there a reference site or article you'd recommend to dig into this liminal/liminoid, home/work/third place idea you both are talking about? I'm intrigued, but don't think I'm understanding how the terminology is being used. Thanks.
Victor Turner - The Ritual Process
Hello Oliver. Sorry I didn't make it tonight to Movie Night. My back is thrashed. Killing me.
I completely understand, sitting for a whole movie with your back going out isn’t a fun one. You were missed, but there’s always next time. We saw Herold and Maude, it ruled. The beginning where they meet at funerals reminded me of Marla and Tyler meeting in support groups.
Morpheus introducing me to the construct of the matrix: were you listening to me? or were you looking at Chuck Palahniuk in a red dress?
I feel like there’s a tie in to watershed moments here. Like where were you on 9/11? type of thing.
YES!
Plot Twist, Chuck was Morpheus all along.
Dang. And just like that a memory came squirting out of my mind grapes: I had my own liminal ritual and maybe it needs to be the basis of a novel. Hmmmmmmmm
I'm currently using my short story to create outrageous memorials for as many folks as I can. Mr Greaves said "Thank you. I never thought I would read this." When I asked for his help writing his most outrageous memorial on twitter, I didn't think for a second he actually write back and want to participate! I hope to get a few more people interested because it is hilarious and very fun to write. Stuffing ashes into glass dildos and writing about body farms...I think they call this type of writing cathartic. Liminal ceremonies allow for a cathartic release as well. The red dress...Sounds fantastic and fun Mr. Palahniuk. https://cheapcrassdevilworshiper.substack.com/p/mr-greaves-jar
If someone were to perhaps write about your most outrageous memorial plans...what would you have in mind Mr. Palahniuk? Besides forcing your class to eat your eggnog grave ice cream Sir?
THAT will take some thought.
:) Oh this is going to be fun!
We're gonna have TONS of blowup dolls. We'll read Guts and have a dunk tank so that someone can pearl dive live. And all the friends Chuck has betrayed by telling their stories will be in the audience. We bring out Chuck's students dressed in salmon costumes and they will jump against the bereaved. For Chuck's memorial cards, there has to be a different typo on each one.
I shouldn't be having this much fun typing these things lol
Why don't we all have a funeral while he's still alive?
This is wonderful...I love the typos so much.
You make me want to elope for my death.
Like Tom always used to say, "99.99 percent of what a memorial does is legitimize the art of death."
I'm kidding, he never said that lol
There were a spate of feature articles about vastly wealthy people building huge mausoleums. A bit Too proactive for my taste.
Hey, if there's ever another horrible pandemic and you cannot go to the gym to save your life...you have the stones to build a ruined mausoleum haha
Just don't let anyone in who seems too goth, they might not come back out.
I wrote about a woman who incorporated the ashes of her father into her wedding day manicure in order to feel close to him on her wedding day. They were quite beautiful actually. The article for my essay is here...with pictures: https://www.today.com/style/bride-includes-father-s-ashes-manicure-so-he-could-hold-t164750
I hope you had a chance to read the excerpt I added to my Uber for Urns essay, which rolls out the details of your eggnog ice cream Sir. :P I hope it's fit for your taste Sir.
I will handwrite dirty haikus on each of the dinner napkins accompanied by little wiener illustrations. Each dirty haiku will be based on Mr. Palahniuk's books, essays, or interviews. I've already put Mr. Greaves' ashes in a glass dildo and Keith Richards already snorted his dad's ashes. We will put at least 3 pounds Mr. Palahniuk's ashes into a giant wiener piñata and start swinging with wild abandon while listening to Hank Williams. The average weight of cremated ashes is around 5-8 pounds so we will have a couple pounds left over for guests to incorporate into their very own clay sculpture to take home. We will reserve a cup of ashes to stick into that lovely red box he posted about a few weeks ago. To be continued...
Huh! (said in a Joe Rogan voice). We're the same weight. Funny, I always thought you looked bigger. *pause* Huh! (said again. In a Joe Rogan voice).
How tall are you?
5'11. You?
Me, too!
Huh! (You know the voice by now).
Shoe size? I'm a 10.5 in US.
I'm a ten in Muck Boots.
Next year's Christmas present sorted.
Speaking of inventing rules and rituals, I've had this story idea circulating in my head. It's about Puppy Play. It's been bothering me because I don't know who to put in the puppy costume. The guy or the girl. But I know there are rules to how a dog should behave. Obey commands, walk on all fours, cannot speak but bark, etc.
You talked about Marla's backstory involving Puppy Play, so I take it you did some research. In one particular video on YouTube, someone interviewed this guy puppy. And he said a line so heartbreaking. He said something along the lines of...when you're a dog, everyone loves you.
I HAVE to use that line.
And also, you don't have to think for yourself.
I think that there is something sad about liminal spaces based on power imbalance. It's the one place where you can break all codes and everything is still based on dominance and submission. At least in a mosh pit you're sharing your pain.
Admitting my own carnal myopia, I can only imagine what Puppy Play is. Can I assume I'm going to have to hide the Google search from my wife? 🤫
I think you're pretty safe. The Puppy Play is usually pretty tame. But as far as all the other stuff, you should probably clear your search history before the wife needs to find a new recipe lol
I just started Choke and it reminds me of the character remembering the first time he choked. Afterwards he was held, he was loved, everyone paid attention to him...His choking becoming a ritual. A way for him to feel whole.
Right, just as in Fight Club, when the narrator fools people into caring for him. What is the scam you use to make people like you?
In social situations, I remain very quiet and use active listening while dressed very well. Always remember to pepper in a couple of sincere compliments and BOOM. Everyone just automatically assumes I'm insanely more intelligent and nicer than I really am and I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not. I let them do the pretending. What about you Mr. Palahniuk?
Eye contact. As a reporter I found that if I held someone's gaze they'd eventually reveal something interesting and vulnerable. Also paraphrasing things back to a speaker as proof that I'm paying attention.
But paying sincere, intelligent compliments is a rare skill, anymore. Bravo to you.
Eye contact is so important. Very true Mr. Palahniuk. :)
Marla's backstory involved Furry Play. Full fur costumes. But I do like your money line.
Have the U.I. gods cleaned up chat formatting?
I don’t think so but they added an edit option, which I guess is worth one sacrificial offering
Word.
It always neat to the see the surprising origin of something - how a chain of miscommunication/misunderstanding spreads. “‘Adjustment Day’? Don’t you mean, ‘A Judgement Day’?”
Interestingly enough, I created a liminoid event in the narrative of my first published short story - a ”suicide trend”. I guess nothing beats a good “action assimilation” structure. (Which I guess is the vicarious appeal of most literature in one form or another.)
So does "action assimilation" mean when people adopt an action/practice from a story?
Pretty much. I was referring to when (side) characters within a fictional narrative participate in an activity - be that fight clubs, party crashing, etc - and the activity has structure, rules or something that can be recognised as a replication of an action that has been previously performed by someone.
"What are the proverbial actions performed by characters in the gospels if not the archetypal method of trying to promote particular forms of action assimilation?" said the scholar, really hoping that the listeners would pick up on his coined term at the end of the claim. He had had it copyrighted and so it was now just a matter of waiting.
Stellar post! Coming from the Pacific Northwest I totally related to your description of Long Beach (although I'm not as concerned with creating an offense as you - that is a very accurate assessment) Absolutely brilliant way of bringing the red dress and glass floats together and my favorite post by far. Totally has me looking for "reinvented ritual" in my own experinces. Thanks again, Chuck!
Thank you! And I had a house in Oysterville for years so I'm just as redneck as the rest. Fyi, Oysterville is as creepy as anything created by Steve King.
My favorite Steven King short starts out by explaining why you should never turn down back roads in Oregon if there are no telephone poles. Words to live by in half the places I've lived in the PNW :)
Point of order: there is a distinctly different flavor to what we call "redneck" up here, and what qualifies to wear the badge in the southern states. My brother and I got into a big debate over it one day when we were teens, because we always considered ourselves rednecks until Jeff Foxworthy redefined it. We tried to come up with a better label that was more Oregon. "Mountain boys" sounds too much like hillbilly. "Oregonites" sounded too much like a lumberjack religious denomination. After days of trying on new monikers we finally settled right back on redneck. Whenever the word comes up in conversation we still give each other a knowing wink.
In my neck of the woods, we call them Meth Zombies.
Is this because reading is usually a relatively solitary experience? So by bringing the story out of the pages, it becomes something greater?
So don't just make up stories, make up things for people to do? Involve people. Make your own traditions?
To be more exact: Depict groups. Since people read alone, allow them membership in a fictional group of people. Give them the companionship that's missing at the present moment in their lives.
Is this what this Substack is? Excellent. Now to arrange a dress code...
These liminoid events are interesting. Can this event be considered as such? I remember a bit of trouble from my old childhood neighborhood. A couple times a week, a bunch of us ( 9 and 10 year olds and some were 11 to 13) would gather to buy this extreme lemon scented candy ( now it's out of the market), and eat 5 or 6 pieces at once. It made us aggressive as we couldn't endure the sour taste. When no one was looking, we'd wreck havock on every coffee chop near. Breaking every glass, tables and chairs which were placed outside. We did it so quickly, the waiters come out gobsmacked, while we are roaring with laughter on the far corner of the street. It continued for weeks but, this one time, one of the older kids ( He was prob 13) got caught by a super skinny mustachioed waiter and I swear he literally hanged him from his legs upside down and beat him. We stopped doing it that day.
Yes, the kind of flash mob you describe sounds very liminoid. Where do you live? That candy sounds like a good idea for a story.
Born and raised in Taza, Morocco. That sour candy was around 2002-2003.
Are you aware of the trend for chewing very tough gum? Young men are chewing several sticks at once to build up their masseter muscles and give themselves a stronger-looking jawline.
No, I didn't know they use gum. I only know that some do workout that jawline muscle.
Is it a recent trend? Last 7 or 8 years at most?
Why chew tough gum when you can...Jawzrsize? https://youtu.be/ny8lBEcUyog?t=42
There is this Italian model who worked his jaw to an extreme Gigachad jaw proportion. What makes this interesting, is that I noticed in the last 6 years at least, a lot of young men in their early to mid 20s want to be Chad Thundercock. Who is some sort of a new father figure type to emulate, Tyler Durden on 150-mg of steroids, with an aim that isn't on a project mayhem kinda thing but, on nailing chicks, self-improvement and embracing the system.
I should correct. Embracing the flawed system by exploiting it.
I keep having this recurring dream where I'm reincarnated as Mitch Hedberg, and Chuck keeps asking us probing questions at a lecture. The one I remember most is when he asked me "What's the one alcohol you'll never drink again?" I said, "That's easy... Rubbing."
[Pause for uncomfortable silence]
[The joke's slowly revealing itself]
[Audience laughs 10 seconds later]
Just found this on twitter! I remember you talked about brown diamonds "chocolate diamonds". WWD calls them "Dishwater diamonds" and how they are bigger than ever! It goes on to further state that a diamond with an inclusion or odd color gives the diamond a character and a personalization not found in a flawless diamond. Great read Mr. Palahniuk! https://wwd.com/accessories-news/jewelry/dishwater-diamonds-engagement-ring-trend-brown-grey-stones-1235023046/
Hah! Those used to be the diamonds they used as industrial abrasives. I guess marketing springs eternal. Pump up the jam!
Yes! So great.
My mother-in-law would see those television ads for chocolate diamonds and rant, "Why don't they just sell a ring with a lump of coal in it."
Ha! Yeah I've never understood the appeal of jewelry. Except for Alexandrite. I'm inexplicably obsessed with looking that that particular gem. It changes colors for goodness sake! I turn into a 2 year old whenever I see it. LOL
Chuck, may you alway get to the point slowly. I love your anecdotes and stories ❤️
Thank you. I always dislike articles/essays that start with an abstract.