The short story Im waiting to submit started as me trying to make myself laugh, but now tugs some heart strings. Once again, if anyone wants to give feedback, its on my Substack.
Chuck, do you think the suicide, murder and a witness structure (SMW) lends itself well to short stories?
Also, I think Irvine Welsh’s books are probably some of the best contemporary examples of voice driven narratives. For me, a lot of his characters seem like they could have case-studies made out of them. The main character, Bruce Robertson, from ‘Filth’ for example.
I type this having just pulled a muscle in my chest - from sneezing.
One thing I struggle with is when is repetiton creating atmosphere and as chorus and when is it lack of economy. In particular, as the story circled in on final tragedy, were the numerous use of recipes good because it showed state of mind and emotional collapse or was it slightly repetitive? It's not a criticism, I'm just never sure when repeating is good versus bad.
Consider that it might act as a pacing device. As a non-cook I skip the recipes, but I'm forced to scan them to find when the narrative begins again. So the recipe acts as a bland buffer like a chorus, to pace the story better. Like attribution in dialog.
I think I can recall reading or hearing somewhere that an earlier version of the movie script didn’t have the voice-over but Fincher wanted it included so they rectified it.
This analysis makes re-reading Heartburn feel like a different novel and thats even after learning a lot from you! It's odd how reading the same book again and again can change so much. Do you think it takes a degree of delusion (along with an immense amount of skill and craft of course), to tap into to write your own story fictionalized?
Agreed. I consider that delusion the "getting into the story" part, where you're swept along by a passion you don't understand. It helps get you through the first draft, what Tom called "shitting out the lump of coal." With each rewrite you're crafting the book to make the story work more effectively. Likewise, when you read a book for the first time you're swept along by story, but each subsequent reading allows you to see the mechanics.
The problem with memoir is that you already "know" the story. You need to escape being you so you can have some freedom to craft the story for better effect. To make yourself into a character is the ultimate submergence of the I, and it allows you to tell a larger truth that can apply to the reader as well.
That process of escaping being yourself to write a memoir seems much harder than writing fiction. How do you escape being you long enough to write it? Is it something one must figure out for themself?
Chuck, can I ask you one thing? Fictionalising memoirs come from a baseline we already know. We just try to make it more appealing to the reader. The same might apply to non-fiction, most of the time. Nora wrote tons of essays and so did you, publishing a giant amount of non-fiction work.
But fiction is different. Fiction is a lie we come up with to tell the truth, right?
Do you ever start questioning the essence of it because of the outside world? Like, you’ve got an idea, and you start writing it down, and you grow fond of the characters, you picture them, their surrounding, and it’s all coming together that you’re cracking yourself up with every scene. Good times. And then you switch on the news and ten minutes in everything starts sinking? Like diseases. Hospitals. Pandemic. Wars. And when you get back to work on your idea, the story you loved so much, you feel kind of alienated. Like removed out of the equation. Unnecessary. Like a horse in kennels. And the only thing left in your head is an odd sense of catholic guilt because you were indulging into pleasing your mind when you didn’t have the right to?
My take was that Tom meant we should arrive -- as if by accident -- at something profound. Humor and cleverness is great, but they should take us to an insight that leaves a deeper impression.
You said something really interesting in a particular interview. I don't remember which interview or what inspired it. But you said something about how you like to teach your students how to give a genuine compliment. I don't think I remember anything else about that interview except that part. How to give an honest compliment.
It made me reflect. Do I actually know how to do that? Don't think I have a vague idea on how to do that. Most of my praise essentially boils down to, "I think this is good because it made me feel good." So I was just curious about how you show students to give compliments.
EXACTLY! That's why many workshops don't work beyond the initial laughter or tears of the first reading. Beyond that, people either just express opinion -- I liked/hated it -- or they intellectualize to show their smarts. We need to understand WHY we enjoyed the work, or how it might work better.
Fantastic. I wouldn’t have caught the martyr/murder/witness structure without you drawing attention to it. The ring, though? I was surprised Rachel drew attention to its story purpose. I’m used to symbols being unremarked upon. But correct me if I’m wrong, but i feel because Rachel draws attention to it as a symbol, she is an author after all, it works to draws attention to her voice and how she thinks, which paradoxically(?) allows the ring thru-line to be subtle… since she makes its symbolism just one more aside from the recipe sharing. It makes me wonder if being subtle is really all that preferable.
Her voice, though! Wow! I was ready to leave capers out the next time I made Israeli Couscous Salad (p. 91 in Mark Bittman’s How to Cook Everything Vegetarian); thanks for being the voice of dissent - since i always felt capers inclusion really elevated the dish!
My vinaigrette recipe you should all try after trying Nora’s? 1 tbsp olive oil, 1 tbsp balsamic vinegar, 1 tspn grey poupon, 1 tspn maple syrup.
Chuck, I hope you have more of these book report type challenges lined up. I plan to seek out more Nora Ephron to read (prob those essays mentioned in earlier thread). Plus, my neighbor is impressed with my book taste now, having seen me reading Nora Ephron.
Isn’t The Great Gatsby public domain now? Maybe there’s a market for your annotated version.
Back to Heartburn - maybe it’s the husband betrayal and Jewish humor, but the early part of the book reminded me of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (on Amazon Prime video), which reminded me there’s seasons of that show i can catch up on. (You know, when I need a break from watching war footage). And having lived and worked in and around DC for a good part of my adult life, I really liked her commentary on 1970s DC, especially since so many romantic comedies are set in New York.
I’ll be recommending this book to anyone interested in a good read. Thanks, Chuck.
Thanks for mentioning Gatsby. Weeks ago I walked into a Barnes and Noble as a clerk was stocking a large set of shelves with dozens of different versions of Gatsby. Illustrated ones, graphic novel ones, annotated ones. The variations seemed endless. As I watched I asked, "What's up with this?" The clerk said, "It fell out of copyright last night so every publisher had a product with today as the "put out" date."
That’s wild. All your Gatsby references, especially your comment on how the book is better appreciated by older men who’ve had to give up on their dreams already (instead of optimistic high schoolers and undergraduates), remind me I’m past due for a re-read
I work at a barnes and noble. And there are like 8 different versions now, and yes it takes up a whole shelve. The book is great. And the original version is all we need.
Haha nope just different cover art and formatting. And an illustrated version. Hemingway's works are the same. Each publisher thinks they need to make their own version so they can get that money
Interesting reading that much of the Greek comedies were destroyed. It made me think that comedy compared to tragedy or literary novels are sometimes considered 'low-brow', but actually it's easier to make someone squirm or uncomfortable when reading a story, but to make someone laugh out loud is incredibly difficult.
A month later, but just finished the book and I’m going to post my notes here as if the lead in question wasn’t rhetorical. The coolest trick I found that hasn’t yet been mentioned is that, by just having the narrator say she sat silently, the non-action wrapped up so many questions and loose ends presented in the book. Can people really change? They can adopt the tricks of people they admire (or envy). Also, to have the person you’ve relied on for pages for their voice tell you they shut up, it was uncharacteristic, and, at a table with the husband and close friends, no one seemed to care or even take notice, it’s a brilliant and rewarding move. As the reader, it was very satisfying to have the narrator’s voice raise a level of awareness, achieve a genuine pregnant pause, and present a moment of realization where you care more about the character’s/author’s words than the books own fictional inhabitants. Couldn’t help but notice that group therapy and a lullaby figure prominently into Heartburn. Love that, aside from an actual meeting, Nora and Chuck have fictional commonalities as well. Also I happened to recently rewatch Throw Momma from the Train during the time I was reading Heartburn and hadn’t before (to be fair, I was a high-schooler when it first came out) realized that Kate Mulgrew’s character is a riff on Ephron with the title becoming the ludicrous “Hot Fire.”
Funny! A local worker at a used book shop recommended The Largesse of the Sea Maiden while implying that Johnson saved some of the best for last. Maybe Denis and Nora understood that even those compelled to speak often cannot but also learn to find equal power and comfort in silence!
I just now got around to reading Heartburn. A lot of good lessons in that one. She has a real firecracker personality in the voice of that character. It’s so believable and I guess that’s because it’s not entirely fiction. I also loved how she has these moments of clarity at the end when she finally sees past the things she couldn’t admit to herself about her relationship and her own thoughts and feelings. Thanks for this write up. I really enjoyed it and it was a nice cherry on top after finishing the book. These really help me a lot.
The short story Im waiting to submit started as me trying to make myself laugh, but now tugs some heart strings. Once again, if anyone wants to give feedback, its on my Substack.
I'll try and take a look soon.
Cut the first part, start with the hospital.
I actually thought about reversing it
That might work.
I like schtick when its quick. It leaves an afterimage. Thanks for the thoughtful writeup about Heartburn. I'll read it.
Chuck, do you think the suicide, murder and a witness structure (SMW) lends itself well to short stories?
Also, I think Irvine Welsh’s books are probably some of the best contemporary examples of voice driven narratives. For me, a lot of his characters seem like they could have case-studies made out of them. The main character, Bruce Robertson, from ‘Filth’ for example.
The formula might be too much territory to cover in a short story. But nothing's impossible.
“Fictionalize your memoir.”
Was literally thinking of doing this when I was done with my present story. Can’t let my stories go to waste rattling around in my head.
I type this having just pulled a muscle in my chest - from sneezing.
One thing I struggle with is when is repetiton creating atmosphere and as chorus and when is it lack of economy. In particular, as the story circled in on final tragedy, were the numerous use of recipes good because it showed state of mind and emotional collapse or was it slightly repetitive? It's not a criticism, I'm just never sure when repeating is good versus bad.
Consider that it might act as a pacing device. As a non-cook I skip the recipes, but I'm forced to scan them to find when the narrative begins again. So the recipe acts as a bland buffer like a chorus, to pace the story better. Like attribution in dialog.
"Note, voice-driven fiction tends to make poor films unless that voice can be retained as voice-over."
Like Fight Club. I never realized it before but the film worked because the voice over worked.
I think I can recall reading or hearing somewhere that an earlier version of the movie script didn’t have the voice-over but Fincher wanted it included so they rectified it.
There's no way the twist (and therefore the redemption) at the end would have been as impactful of the narrator's voice hadn't been driving the film.
The joke from the movie Adaptation regarding voiceover makes me laugh just thinking about it.
I loved reading Heartburn (and your analysis of it) and am so grateful that you introduced me to it.
Also, that sound you heard was the cracking open of the seed for a novel that's been lying fallow in my dumb brain for a long time now. Thank you.
Crack away.
This analysis makes re-reading Heartburn feel like a different novel and thats even after learning a lot from you! It's odd how reading the same book again and again can change so much. Do you think it takes a degree of delusion (along with an immense amount of skill and craft of course), to tap into to write your own story fictionalized?
Agreed. I consider that delusion the "getting into the story" part, where you're swept along by a passion you don't understand. It helps get you through the first draft, what Tom called "shitting out the lump of coal." With each rewrite you're crafting the book to make the story work more effectively. Likewise, when you read a book for the first time you're swept along by story, but each subsequent reading allows you to see the mechanics.
The problem with memoir is that you already "know" the story. You need to escape being you so you can have some freedom to craft the story for better effect. To make yourself into a character is the ultimate submergence of the I, and it allows you to tell a larger truth that can apply to the reader as well.
That process of escaping being yourself to write a memoir seems much harder than writing fiction. How do you escape being you long enough to write it? Is it something one must figure out for themself?
Chuck, can I ask you one thing? Fictionalising memoirs come from a baseline we already know. We just try to make it more appealing to the reader. The same might apply to non-fiction, most of the time. Nora wrote tons of essays and so did you, publishing a giant amount of non-fiction work.
But fiction is different. Fiction is a lie we come up with to tell the truth, right?
Do you ever start questioning the essence of it because of the outside world? Like, you’ve got an idea, and you start writing it down, and you grow fond of the characters, you picture them, their surrounding, and it’s all coming together that you’re cracking yourself up with every scene. Good times. And then you switch on the news and ten minutes in everything starts sinking? Like diseases. Hospitals. Pandemic. Wars. And when you get back to work on your idea, the story you loved so much, you feel kind of alienated. Like removed out of the equation. Unnecessary. Like a horse in kennels. And the only thing left in your head is an odd sense of catholic guilt because you were indulging into pleasing your mind when you didn’t have the right to?
Is this a thing?
When Tom said you want to quickly break their hearts, does that imply a sad ending to a story or something different?
My take was that Tom meant we should arrive -- as if by accident -- at something profound. Humor and cleverness is great, but they should take us to an insight that leaves a deeper impression.
You said something really interesting in a particular interview. I don't remember which interview or what inspired it. But you said something about how you like to teach your students how to give a genuine compliment. I don't think I remember anything else about that interview except that part. How to give an honest compliment.
It made me reflect. Do I actually know how to do that? Don't think I have a vague idea on how to do that. Most of my praise essentially boils down to, "I think this is good because it made me feel good." So I was just curious about how you show students to give compliments.
EXACTLY! That's why many workshops don't work beyond the initial laughter or tears of the first reading. Beyond that, people either just express opinion -- I liked/hated it -- or they intellectualize to show their smarts. We need to understand WHY we enjoyed the work, or how it might work better.
Fantastic. I wouldn’t have caught the martyr/murder/witness structure without you drawing attention to it. The ring, though? I was surprised Rachel drew attention to its story purpose. I’m used to symbols being unremarked upon. But correct me if I’m wrong, but i feel because Rachel draws attention to it as a symbol, she is an author after all, it works to draws attention to her voice and how she thinks, which paradoxically(?) allows the ring thru-line to be subtle… since she makes its symbolism just one more aside from the recipe sharing. It makes me wonder if being subtle is really all that preferable.
Her voice, though! Wow! I was ready to leave capers out the next time I made Israeli Couscous Salad (p. 91 in Mark Bittman’s How to Cook Everything Vegetarian); thanks for being the voice of dissent - since i always felt capers inclusion really elevated the dish!
My vinaigrette recipe you should all try after trying Nora’s? 1 tbsp olive oil, 1 tbsp balsamic vinegar, 1 tspn grey poupon, 1 tspn maple syrup.
Chuck, I hope you have more of these book report type challenges lined up. I plan to seek out more Nora Ephron to read (prob those essays mentioned in earlier thread). Plus, my neighbor is impressed with my book taste now, having seen me reading Nora Ephron.
Isn’t The Great Gatsby public domain now? Maybe there’s a market for your annotated version.
Back to Heartburn - maybe it’s the husband betrayal and Jewish humor, but the early part of the book reminded me of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (on Amazon Prime video), which reminded me there’s seasons of that show i can catch up on. (You know, when I need a break from watching war footage). And having lived and worked in and around DC for a good part of my adult life, I really liked her commentary on 1970s DC, especially since so many romantic comedies are set in New York.
I’ll be recommending this book to anyone interested in a good read. Thanks, Chuck.
Thanks for mentioning Gatsby. Weeks ago I walked into a Barnes and Noble as a clerk was stocking a large set of shelves with dozens of different versions of Gatsby. Illustrated ones, graphic novel ones, annotated ones. The variations seemed endless. As I watched I asked, "What's up with this?" The clerk said, "It fell out of copyright last night so every publisher had a product with today as the "put out" date."
That’s wild. All your Gatsby references, especially your comment on how the book is better appreciated by older men who’ve had to give up on their dreams already (instead of optimistic high schoolers and undergraduates), remind me I’m past due for a re-read
I work at a barnes and noble. And there are like 8 different versions now, and yes it takes up a whole shelve. The book is great. And the original version is all we need.
Eight versions like “The Great Gatsby and Cthulhu?” Or like “The Great Gatsby (ReWritten in South Boston Dialect?”) or just different cover art?
Haha nope just different cover art and formatting. And an illustrated version. Hemingway's works are the same. Each publisher thinks they need to make their own version so they can get that money
Interesting reading that much of the Greek comedies were destroyed. It made me think that comedy compared to tragedy or literary novels are sometimes considered 'low-brow', but actually it's easier to make someone squirm or uncomfortable when reading a story, but to make someone laugh out loud is incredibly difficult.
Placed a hold on the book and look forward to reading it! I hope someday you'll recount your interaction with Sondheim? I love that!
A month later, but just finished the book and I’m going to post my notes here as if the lead in question wasn’t rhetorical. The coolest trick I found that hasn’t yet been mentioned is that, by just having the narrator say she sat silently, the non-action wrapped up so many questions and loose ends presented in the book. Can people really change? They can adopt the tricks of people they admire (or envy). Also, to have the person you’ve relied on for pages for their voice tell you they shut up, it was uncharacteristic, and, at a table with the husband and close friends, no one seemed to care or even take notice, it’s a brilliant and rewarding move. As the reader, it was very satisfying to have the narrator’s voice raise a level of awareness, achieve a genuine pregnant pause, and present a moment of realization where you care more about the character’s/author’s words than the books own fictional inhabitants. Couldn’t help but notice that group therapy and a lullaby figure prominently into Heartburn. Love that, aside from an actual meeting, Nora and Chuck have fictional commonalities as well. Also I happened to recently rewatch Throw Momma from the Train during the time I was reading Heartburn and hadn’t before (to be fair, I was a high-schooler when it first came out) realized that Kate Mulgrew’s character is a riff on Ephron with the title becoming the ludicrous “Hot Fire.”
Funny! A local worker at a used book shop recommended The Largesse of the Sea Maiden while implying that Johnson saved some of the best for last. Maybe Denis and Nora understood that even those compelled to speak often cannot but also learn to find equal power and comfort in silence!
I just now got around to reading Heartburn. A lot of good lessons in that one. She has a real firecracker personality in the voice of that character. It’s so believable and I guess that’s because it’s not entirely fiction. I also loved how she has these moments of clarity at the end when she finally sees past the things she couldn’t admit to herself about her relationship and her own thoughts and feelings. Thanks for this write up. I really enjoyed it and it was a nice cherry on top after finishing the book. These really help me a lot.