I’ve dissected, rats, lambs brains, three spine sticklebacks, fruit flies (yes you can. It’s tedious but you can) but never a cat or human. Dont know if I could do it. But there’s a prompt; the hesitant medical student who doesn’t know how he got to his third year of med school without having done any dissections.
Lololol........I'm kind of forgetting where I am right? I just don't think any serial killer wants to deal with the drama that comes with killing me.............I got hit by a Mercedes and won. I also got ejected from a Firebird at 100mph and won. I'm just too much work ..........
Great prompt, just as I’m wrapping up some other projects. The past few months I’ve written several short stories, based on your suggestions and a list of ideas I keep in a notebook. I’m having a blast. I have to manage my time, but these excursions make coming home to my novel comforting. I don’t know if you’re reading my brain or something, but the timing of your lessons is impeccable. Thanks again.
Chuck! I'm so glad to see you post again! And thanks for this. I remember asking you about how you like to write each of your novel chapters as standalone short stories a while back and you said you needed time. Do you remember that? Was this post especially for me??
And on Saturday? Wow, that's faster than expected. Can't wait.
Of course! Your packages have become my official love language now. So thanks for that!
And I'm curious about the serial killer contest. Was there a particular reason you choose my answer as one of the three winners? Was there something that stuck out?
I swear I'm doing this all wrong. Because a lot of time that's my thinking. My mind says you have to follow the "natural" progression, from start to finish. Even though it doesn't have to be. But the idea of creating bits and pieces and aggregating them into a story is growing on me. I often deny myself the part of the story that sparked my interest in the first place because it usually ends up in the middle or the end. And sometimes when I start at the beginning, I start too early in the story and get bored with all this throat-clearing. But I deny myself from going straight into the goods because...it feels like I'd be eating dessert before I've eaten my food. Or like opening my presents on Dec 24th.
This is supposed to be fun! Most people fear using their good idea up front, but the truth is that once you write out that good idea you create room for the better idea, then the great idea. The more you write, the more wonderful ideas will occur.
Maybe I haven't found the topics I was meant to write about. Something unresolvable. Or maybe I'm avoiding them. My father died when I was 13. And from then on, I didn't really have a strong male role model in my life. Even now at 32, it's like I'm still scrambling for a secondary father you talk about. What happens to a kid who never finds one? Your line about the generation of men raised by women...there's a reason why that hits so hard.
And as much as I love dad, even more so now, it makes me sad that he left without teaching me all that he could. But at the same time, I'm relieved he's not here because he'd be disappointed that I'm not doing all I could. Sometimes I fantasize what life would be like if he stayed alive for just 5 more years.
I'm also biracial. Always felt like I was a fence sitter with both sides of my family.
In elementary school, I've had other kids, just twice, stop being my friend once they found out my dad was black. At the time, my kid mind brushed it off. But now, it just confuses me.
Sorry for long comment lol
There's a lot there. I just don't know how to turn those into legit stories.
An aside. Notice how when you love a film or book you usually only love certain scenes. You tolerate most of the story in order to relive the parts you enjoy. With that in mind, consider how you can craft the memorable parts so they land with huge weight.
I've forgotten much of 'Fight Club' but I still love the Raymond K. Hessel "human sacrifice" scene, and it's one of several that stick with people. My bet is that people want that ruthless secondary father who holds them wholly accountable. Likewise, in 'The Devil Wears Prada' we get the ruthless secondary mother who seemingly torments the antagonist, yet mentors her to become more effective.
So... you can invent your own secondary father. In 'The Paper Chase' it's the John Houseman character. In 'An Officer and a Gentleman' the secondary father is the drill sergeant. In 'Rocky' the secondary father is the boxing coach. People love the secondary father/mother story. Just write out your best ideal of how that secondary father would occur.
That said, I am a little brutal as a teacher because I cleave to the John Houseman archetype, and that can be a little too much for some people.
For years my editor, Gerry, would tell me, "I can't put my finger on what's wrong, but fix it. Just revise it all and make it work." It was maddening, but it made me less dependent on other's fixing my work. And it made victory sweeter once I'd ripped a book apart and made Gerry happy.
As far as secondary fathers, would that be Sean Connery's character in Finding Forrester? Or JK Simmons character in Whiplash?
I do love secondary father stories even before I knew how to label them. Gotta watch The Paper Chase. And also An Officer and a Gentleman.
I'm wondering...did people view Gordon Lish as their secondary father?
And also, I'm confused. You said that you could be a little brutal. I can believe that. I remember hearing you say... how you wanted the John Houseman character to throw your work in your face and say do better. But considering the feedback I've read on here from you, you're actually fairly pleasant for the most part. Are you harsher on students who meet up for the workshops?
I wrote a few shorts years ago. One day while reading it over again I realized it was the same character but different scenarios, so I crammed them all into one story. I think it worked… this reminded me of that
I see this going somewhere dark and tragic. What if he finds the lonely old cat lady dead on the floor, huggin kitty's food bowl, a pillow perched against the kitchen cupboard, her eyes open and sad as she waited and waited? Goddamn, Chuck—you bring out the weepy little bitch in me.
Not since the last ER visit. But you sparked an interesting story prompt. What makes a strong novelist like yourself cry? I'll give you two-thousand words on my personal Sub if you give me a true starting point. I promise not to use your name or likeness in the story.
I think it was by John Updike of all people. It depicts a dying dog that crawls onto a sheet of newspaper as its bowels fail, just as trained. And it ends with the line "Good dog."
Likewise, Amy Hempel's essay "A Full Service Shelter" depicts the horrors of killing dogs in a New York City shelter where she volunteers. It's beautiful and brutal, and you'll cry like your best friend just died.
This is funny. I'm super glad you brought up John Updike because there's a quote in a movie attributed to him. Have you ever seen As Good As It Gets with Helen Hunt and Jack Nicholson? There was one scene where Jack's character gets approached by this secretary -type lady and she asks him how does he write women so well.
And what he said was so memorable and somewhat controversial. He said, "I think of a man. And then I take away reason and accountability." And with a line like that, you split your audience. The guys will laugh but their wives or girlfriends hate it.
Most Buy Nothing groups or the rat hole that is Next Door share a chip reader since lost/found pets are practically a daily occurrence. Do with that what you will, but I like the scenario in which folks of all walks share (or could share) this common thing (literally).
The problem of the dead cat could be resolved Re-animator-style, maybe with some replacement parts.
For anyone who's interested, there's a Doctor Who audio play called "Medicinal Purposes" in which the exploits of Burke and Hare are used as time travel snuff tourism. It also questions whether the ends justify the means, given that modern medicine is built on anatomists' work on stolen corpses. The audio plays are usually targeted for a more mature audience than the show is, and this episode includes David Tennant as a side character (it's before his run).
You make a very good point. To me money is inherently boring. It's only when the money stands for an emotional stake that it engages me. When Scarlett O'Hara needs $300 to pay the property taxes on Tara I'm rooting for her. This is why I'm bored by gambling, money is too abstract to hook me.
Likewise, when multi-level marketing plans like Amway want to excite their new members the business tells them to shop for luxury cars, homes and private jets. Only when people see the concrete benefits -- objects vs. money -- can they get jazzed about selling.
It's my understanding that to pull a reader on board and take them to a place they wouldn't agree to go to, you gotta be funny. Make them laugh to lower their defenses a little bit.
Am I right in saying that?
But wouldn't humor undermine the seriousness of the topic?
Is it a compromise?
I see a lot of writing that uses way too much cleverness and jokes as a way to skirt around anything troubling and to avoid conflict.
Chuck's novels are clinical satires, no matter how dark shit gets. His style and perspective have been championed by Gen X and Elder Millennials for years. For some, it's an acquired taste. For others, it's pure oxygen. My advice? Try it.
Just to avoid abstracts, let's look at 'Guts.' It opens with a bland description of 'pegging' and the physical process of buying ingredients for a carrot cake. There's no mugging or laugh-lines until "Like he's going to stick a carrot cake up his butt." Then it veers back into physical process. Lots of physical process. Until the next laugh-line, "One minute you're just a kid getting off, and the next minute you'll never be a lawyer."
My point is that the story dryly depicts physical processes, and at the moment said process might seem too icky or sad, I cut the tension with a laugh. Monica Drake does this flawlessly. The actions in her stories depict the horror or sadness or humor, and she refuses to mug for the laugh. I try to mimic that: allowing the scene to occur, but summing things up for a laugh and a little distance when need be.
The laughs occur as bigger depending on how much tension you build before you cut it. The 'Guts' three-part laugh is the big release before the bobsled to hell. "That used to be my worst fear in the whole world, my sister thinking she's just getting fat then giving birth to a two-headed retard baby." (laugh) "Both heads looking like me." (bigger laugh) "Me, the uncle and the father." (biggest laugh)
After that we slide into the physical process of "pearl diving" and there are no laughs for a long time, just mounting horror. Until, "That dog was fucking nuts!" And a huge laugh. It's not so much about being "funny" as it is about stressing the reader and then suddenly relieving the stress so people laugh with relief.
Laughter is what people do when they see you're not going to kill them.
That alleviates a lot. Because I always thought I had to write something cleverly structured, like a typical joke, for it to be funny. But what you're saying is you can achieve laughter simply by breaking the tension. It kinda uses the element of surprise. In Fight Club, you talk about Tyler smashing someone's face in the ground until a mask of blood is looking up and Tyler finally says, "Cool." And after you cut the tension, you build it back up again, right?
And I was actually thinking about the "two-headed retard baby" line just the other day haha
Thanks for the response! You are too generous! I feel like these past responses are like secret chapters not included in Consider This.
I’ve dissected, rats, lambs brains, three spine sticklebacks, fruit flies (yes you can. It’s tedious but you can) but never a cat or human. Dont know if I could do it. But there’s a prompt; the hesitant medical student who doesn’t know how he got to his third year of med school without having done any dissections.
Uh want to dissect me? Lol. That's not a request for sexual favors either.....
Don’t advertise your desire to be dissected too loud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes
Lololol........I'm kind of forgetting where I am right? I just don't think any serial killer wants to deal with the drama that comes with killing me.............I got hit by a Mercedes and won. I also got ejected from a Firebird at 100mph and won. I'm just too much work ..........
I love this visual of soap slivers!
Great prompt, just as I’m wrapping up some other projects. The past few months I’ve written several short stories, based on your suggestions and a list of ideas I keep in a notebook. I’m having a blast. I have to manage my time, but these excursions make coming home to my novel comforting. I don’t know if you’re reading my brain or something, but the timing of your lessons is impeccable. Thanks again.
Chuck! I'm so glad to see you post again! And thanks for this. I remember asking you about how you like to write each of your novel chapters as standalone short stories a while back and you said you needed time. Do you remember that? Was this post especially for me??
And on Saturday? Wow, that's faster than expected. Can't wait.
I do remember. And thanks for the reminder. Juggling a lot in my head. Hope you love your package.
Of course! Your packages have become my official love language now. So thanks for that!
And I'm curious about the serial killer contest. Was there a particular reason you choose my answer as one of the three winners? Was there something that stuck out?
I guess I threw it to the female killers. And you spelled her name right... I had to double-triple check every time I typed it.
At this point, I don't think I can ever misspell her name. Ailean Warnnose.
See? Flawless.
I swear I'm doing this all wrong. Because a lot of time that's my thinking. My mind says you have to follow the "natural" progression, from start to finish. Even though it doesn't have to be. But the idea of creating bits and pieces and aggregating them into a story is growing on me. I often deny myself the part of the story that sparked my interest in the first place because it usually ends up in the middle or the end. And sometimes when I start at the beginning, I start too early in the story and get bored with all this throat-clearing. But I deny myself from going straight into the goods because...it feels like I'd be eating dessert before I've eaten my food. Or like opening my presents on Dec 24th.
It's fucked up lol
This is supposed to be fun! Most people fear using their good idea up front, but the truth is that once you write out that good idea you create room for the better idea, then the great idea. The more you write, the more wonderful ideas will occur.
Maybe I haven't found the topics I was meant to write about. Something unresolvable. Or maybe I'm avoiding them. My father died when I was 13. And from then on, I didn't really have a strong male role model in my life. Even now at 32, it's like I'm still scrambling for a secondary father you talk about. What happens to a kid who never finds one? Your line about the generation of men raised by women...there's a reason why that hits so hard.
And as much as I love dad, even more so now, it makes me sad that he left without teaching me all that he could. But at the same time, I'm relieved he's not here because he'd be disappointed that I'm not doing all I could. Sometimes I fantasize what life would be like if he stayed alive for just 5 more years.
I'm also biracial. Always felt like I was a fence sitter with both sides of my family.
In elementary school, I've had other kids, just twice, stop being my friend once they found out my dad was black. At the time, my kid mind brushed it off. But now, it just confuses me.
Sorry for long comment lol
There's a lot there. I just don't know how to turn those into legit stories.
An aside. Notice how when you love a film or book you usually only love certain scenes. You tolerate most of the story in order to relive the parts you enjoy. With that in mind, consider how you can craft the memorable parts so they land with huge weight.
I've forgotten much of 'Fight Club' but I still love the Raymond K. Hessel "human sacrifice" scene, and it's one of several that stick with people. My bet is that people want that ruthless secondary father who holds them wholly accountable. Likewise, in 'The Devil Wears Prada' we get the ruthless secondary mother who seemingly torments the antagonist, yet mentors her to become more effective.
So... you can invent your own secondary father. In 'The Paper Chase' it's the John Houseman character. In 'An Officer and a Gentleman' the secondary father is the drill sergeant. In 'Rocky' the secondary father is the boxing coach. People love the secondary father/mother story. Just write out your best ideal of how that secondary father would occur.
That said, I am a little brutal as a teacher because I cleave to the John Houseman archetype, and that can be a little too much for some people.
For years my editor, Gerry, would tell me, "I can't put my finger on what's wrong, but fix it. Just revise it all and make it work." It was maddening, but it made me less dependent on other's fixing my work. And it made victory sweeter once I'd ripped a book apart and made Gerry happy.
As far as secondary fathers, would that be Sean Connery's character in Finding Forrester? Or JK Simmons character in Whiplash?
I do love secondary father stories even before I knew how to label them. Gotta watch The Paper Chase. And also An Officer and a Gentleman.
I'm wondering...did people view Gordon Lish as their secondary father?
And also, I'm confused. You said that you could be a little brutal. I can believe that. I remember hearing you say... how you wanted the John Houseman character to throw your work in your face and say do better. But considering the feedback I've read on here from you, you're actually fairly pleasant for the most part. Are you harsher on students who meet up for the workshops?
I wrote a few shorts years ago. One day while reading it over again I realized it was the same character but different scenarios, so I crammed them all into one story. I think it worked… this reminded me of that
Exactly. I thought I was writing random stories until I saw most of them included a character named Tyler.
A narrative that remains one of the few I’ve read multiple times.
I miss writing at times but life has taken me in a different direction.
It happens to me too, browsing through old stories and find out some common names for characters.
My little serial killers middle name is Tyler lololol..........
A post about soap? I should have sud-spected.
(That was for Karen S)
Is this cause no one would let you publish the vivisection story? God I need a job. I would love to steal that btw.
I see this going somewhere dark and tragic. What if he finds the lonely old cat lady dead on the floor, huggin kitty's food bowl, a pillow perched against the kitchen cupboard, her eyes open and sad as she waited and waited? Goddamn, Chuck—you bring out the weepy little bitch in me.
Are you on steroids? People talk about 'roid rage, but all the guys I know on steroids cry all the time.
Not since the last ER visit. But you sparked an interesting story prompt. What makes a strong novelist like yourself cry? I'll give you two-thousand words on my personal Sub if you give me a true starting point. I promise not to use your name or likeness in the story.
Sorry for this.
But towards the end of Consider This, Chuck talked about reciting a poem that made him cry. It was about a dying, old dog.
I can't recall who wrote the poem.
I think it was by John Updike of all people. It depicts a dying dog that crawls onto a sheet of newspaper as its bowels fail, just as trained. And it ends with the line "Good dog."
Likewise, Amy Hempel's essay "A Full Service Shelter" depicts the horrors of killing dogs in a New York City shelter where she volunteers. It's beautiful and brutal, and you'll cry like your best friend just died.
This is funny. I'm super glad you brought up John Updike because there's a quote in a movie attributed to him. Have you ever seen As Good As It Gets with Helen Hunt and Jack Nicholson? There was one scene where Jack's character gets approached by this secretary -type lady and she asks him how does he write women so well.
And what he said was so memorable and somewhat controversial. He said, "I think of a man. And then I take away reason and accountability." And with a line like that, you split your audience. The guys will laugh but their wives or girlfriends hate it.
What did you think of that line?
Maybe "This is funny" wasn't the best opening line in response to your comment about the dogs being killed and dying. I'm sorry.
Most Buy Nothing groups or the rat hole that is Next Door share a chip reader since lost/found pets are practically a daily occurrence. Do with that what you will, but I like the scenario in which folks of all walks share (or could share) this common thing (literally).
Interesting.
Maybe the cat is in cahoots with the student...
The problem of the dead cat could be resolved Re-animator-style, maybe with some replacement parts.
For anyone who's interested, there's a Doctor Who audio play called "Medicinal Purposes" in which the exploits of Burke and Hare are used as time travel snuff tourism. It also questions whether the ends justify the means, given that modern medicine is built on anatomists' work on stolen corpses. The audio plays are usually targeted for a more mature audience than the show is, and this episode includes David Tennant as a side character (it's before his run).
I’m guessing the “Save The Cat” structure probably won’t work here since the cat is already dead.
🤣
You access the chip and find some bitcoins on it. People don't trust banks anymore.
Ooooooh... You have just reinvented the classic movie "Charade" but using a cat chip instead of rare postage stamps. Bravo!
Haven't Seen it. Now it feels like i have to.
I'll try to write a short story using that bitcoin idea.
Having to make research about bitcoin is kinda depressing though.
You make a very good point. To me money is inherently boring. It's only when the money stands for an emotional stake that it engages me. When Scarlett O'Hara needs $300 to pay the property taxes on Tara I'm rooting for her. This is why I'm bored by gambling, money is too abstract to hook me.
Likewise, when multi-level marketing plans like Amway want to excite their new members the business tells them to shop for luxury cars, homes and private jets. Only when people see the concrete benefits -- objects vs. money -- can they get jazzed about selling.
My brother and I used to collect all the slivers of soap, and microwave them into “new soap,” until one day, when we did it and the microwave blew up.
Irish Spring will do that.
Before I forget.
Something you said confused me.
Here's a question.
It's my understanding that to pull a reader on board and take them to a place they wouldn't agree to go to, you gotta be funny. Make them laugh to lower their defenses a little bit.
Am I right in saying that?
But wouldn't humor undermine the seriousness of the topic?
Is it a compromise?
I see a lot of writing that uses way too much cleverness and jokes as a way to skirt around anything troubling and to avoid conflict.
So maybe I'm jaded.
Chuck's novels are clinical satires, no matter how dark shit gets. His style and perspective have been championed by Gen X and Elder Millennials for years. For some, it's an acquired taste. For others, it's pure oxygen. My advice? Try it.
Just to avoid abstracts, let's look at 'Guts.' It opens with a bland description of 'pegging' and the physical process of buying ingredients for a carrot cake. There's no mugging or laugh-lines until "Like he's going to stick a carrot cake up his butt." Then it veers back into physical process. Lots of physical process. Until the next laugh-line, "One minute you're just a kid getting off, and the next minute you'll never be a lawyer."
My point is that the story dryly depicts physical processes, and at the moment said process might seem too icky or sad, I cut the tension with a laugh. Monica Drake does this flawlessly. The actions in her stories depict the horror or sadness or humor, and she refuses to mug for the laugh. I try to mimic that: allowing the scene to occur, but summing things up for a laugh and a little distance when need be.
The laughs occur as bigger depending on how much tension you build before you cut it. The 'Guts' three-part laugh is the big release before the bobsled to hell. "That used to be my worst fear in the whole world, my sister thinking she's just getting fat then giving birth to a two-headed retard baby." (laugh) "Both heads looking like me." (bigger laugh) "Me, the uncle and the father." (biggest laugh)
After that we slide into the physical process of "pearl diving" and there are no laughs for a long time, just mounting horror. Until, "That dog was fucking nuts!" And a huge laugh. It's not so much about being "funny" as it is about stressing the reader and then suddenly relieving the stress so people laugh with relief.
Laughter is what people do when they see you're not going to kill them.
That alleviates a lot. Because I always thought I had to write something cleverly structured, like a typical joke, for it to be funny. But what you're saying is you can achieve laughter simply by breaking the tension. It kinda uses the element of surprise. In Fight Club, you talk about Tyler smashing someone's face in the ground until a mask of blood is looking up and Tyler finally says, "Cool." And after you cut the tension, you build it back up again, right?
And I was actually thinking about the "two-headed retard baby" line just the other day haha
Thanks for the response! You are too generous! I feel like these past responses are like secret chapters not included in Consider This.