I don’t think so. There is no emotional attachment to money. Readers want to be able to empathize with protagonists. Money is a hard concept to empathize with or around. Most people tend to stay within a particular sócio-economic range their entire lives, and so unless characters are within that range of the reader, the reader won’t be able to empathize. But emotion. That transcends sócio-economic status.
Can you think of one story based on money -- not tied to an emotional issue -- that works?
Watching 'Panic Room' I wanted to know more about WHY the burglars wanted the money so badly. It seemed tied to a child's health, somehow, but the paper money vanishing at the end didn't seem very emotional. Your thoughts?
Whats the other 2008 crash film? I watched them both again about a year ago.
They're all about the emotional impact of these abstract money systems shitting the bed. Not the money or the systems themselves. If they focused on the money parts, doing my own accounting would be more exciting.
What about Theodore Dreiser’s “An American Tragedy” aka the movie “A Place in the Sun”? I think money is the compelling issue in this capitalist society.
I suppose I should clarify. When I stated “there is no emotional attachment to money”, I was intending to mean readers can’t establish an emotional connection with a story based on money. They can however, and often do, relate to the emotions of characters when the emotion is fueled by money. But no, I cannot think of a story based on money that is not tied to emotion, that works. Honestly, in thinking about this, when I think about money in stories, I feel like in most cases you can argue there is an emotional attachment to the money by someone. I wonder, can we even come up with just a story that we could all objectively agree that the money has no emotion attached to it.
I agree. I think that speaks to my follow up comment, responded to Chuck’s follow up question. There’s always an emotional attachment to the money, at least a debatable one. I hate to speak in superlatives of always or never. I think your “want” is almost always an emotional attachment to the money. Whether it be greed, contentment, happiness of being able to provide a need for your family, or some other want.
I really like the idea of a character pursuing resource/money if it means their family and friends might be safe in order to drive the story but I also like creative purity. Like in Breaking Bad. Walter broke our hearts and thrilled when he had to pursue meth production in order to get his family financially stable. I also like the relatability of a character who does not know what's going to happen next financially or otherwise. I notice I'm not as invested with characters who are upper middle class or extremely wealthy. What made Walter's character even more powerful was the fact that after a few months it was clear the money was only secondary. He loved himself as the villain and that's what carried him. Harmony Korine talks so much about the idea of creative purity. Also see:"Uncut Gems." I love the quote "This is how I win." You realize Sandler's gambling habit has almost nothing to do with money. Really interesting.
I also just watched "The Zone of Interest" yesterday about Nazi Germany. The SS guard and his family lived adjacent to Auschwitz. Throughout the movie you could hear the furnaces, screaming and crying while the ideal family talked about status, material possessions, and money with horrible callous.
I loved breaking bad for the exact same reasons. I tend to find characters with money struggles to be much relatable than ones that are more well off. I have a hard time sympathizing with any sort of character that doesn’t struggle financially. There may be some exceptions to that but in general I just can’t relate to a life of financial ease.
Money is stored energy. Intention is interesting. Compulsion is interesting. Thou shalt not covet is interesting. (Have you seen 'Dekalog:The Ten Commandments' by Kieslowski?) Thou shalt not steal is interesting. Behavior is interesting. I like what you are saying about what keeps our interest.
I thought it was gorgeous how Joker’s soul (typo I meant sole but that works too!) interest was chaos. For some reason it seems almost ego-less. I also really enjoyed the visual of the firetruck on fire. I feel like the joker is the ultimate artist. He’s like who I want to be, but I don’t dare, so it’s fun to watch.
I thought a lot about writing about money because when I was pregnant, we survived with food stamps, WIC, rental assistance, and prayer while we were 1099 independent contractors in sales so it was very much about resources and always thinking about how nice it would be if it was just there and always wondering where “it” was like God or my mother. Now that we’re in a different place financially I almost never think about it except for how I hope to make things better for myself and my family and others. Where to funnel the energy as another person said. I’ve also always been fascinated since I was a little kid about money because of the scarcity in my household, and comparing myself to my wealthy childhood friend whose dad owned half my town and how much her mom hated me and over the years I have made quite an attempt to think about it differently/fearlessly, which has improved my life overall. I have so many thoughts about it thank you for asking. Dammit now I feel all creative. Why’d you do you do that to me???? lol <3
I think such stories can still work since the quest for money (status) is at the heart of the American myth. Take stories of people becoming gangsters to get a slice of the pie. Or stories of horrible people fighting over inheritances (i.e HBO’s succession). or the stories of wanna bees flirting on the edge of financial elicits to capture scraps to build up their own hedge fund empires (ie The Fund - nonfiction about Ray Dalio).
How about a movie like the 80s comedy, Brewster’s millions. Take $1 mil and run off with it, or spend $30 mil in 30 days with nothing to show for it to inherit $300 million. I don’t feel like Richard Pryor’s character was chasing power, rather just chasing the comfort of accumulating generational wealth and comfortability.
Yup, written in 1984. Prime yuppie years of commercials, porn, hedonism, money, drugs. Opportunities and excess give way to ruin and debt. Very 80s. Money as goal regardless of how you get it and what you do with it.
I don’t have a great relationship with money, so it’s usually something I skim over. It can be a factor in hardship or hope, but it’s only a byproduct of behavior. Love, revenge, lust, enlightenment - those are reasons for me to pay attention.
Ocean's Eleven (2001) and The Art of the Steal (2013) both appear to be money-motivated on the surface but turn out to be more about personal motivations (at least for the main characters). I'm going to go with the layered story as the way forward.
Along the same lines, but... backward?... Die Hard (1988) appears to be about emotional (socio-political is emotional, right?) motive but turns out to be purely about money.
Maybe money (exact sums) are gone, but money=class seems to continue in a Tom Ripley way. In film/TV, at least, there's a rash of wealth-obsessed stories (Saltburn, Triangle of Sadness). The goal is either to get the money (i.e., join the upper class) or burn it all down. The line from the article that stood out to me: "A friend once told me the easiest way to know if a college-educated person has rich parents is to ask if they have student loans." My kids are loaded with student loans; my step kids don't owe a cent. Our merged family never talks about that.
Agreed. I love the coded way people inquire about wealth. In old Portland people always asked, "Where did you go to high school?" And the best answers were always Lincoln or Riverdale High. In Paris, my editor said no one will overtly discuss money so they ask, "How much do you pay for your apartment?" Maybe coding and signaling have replaced the overt discuss in books?
I wouldn’t know where to start on a money story besides something political. Smash capitalism. Spread capitalism. I honestly feel like my life flows between the two.
One of the themes in the novel I’m working on is wealth imbalance. It’s not so much a personal struggle for the main character, she grew up poor but due to other privileges, she will find herself shuffled in amongst the billionaire class. And she will also discover she can shift the wealth/power imbalance if she takes very drastic measures that will toss the entire world into chaos. So, frankly, I *hope* there is still a market for it lol.
Full disclosure: I can't say I read much contemporary literature. Barring some noble exceptions (among which, of course, Chuck Palahniuk), many of the authors I read have been dead for a long time now or made their names decades ago.
To be honest, I have never read a book that made me think: "What a shame! If only the author had dared to specify the size of such a character's debt!"
I find the particulars of money terribly boring. And why would I need them? In our Western society, EVERYTHING we do is susceptible to monetization and regularly valued in terms of money. There's no need to specify the particulars. By showing the right details, we can already see the economic situation, privileges, needs, or merits of a character.
Struggling for money is sad and boring enough in our day-to-day reality. Why should we convey this sadness and boredom to our fiction? I agree with Mr. Palahniuk that it's far more interesting focusing on what we want, need, or use that money for.
Having said that, if the story or character requires it (the way a story about barflies will require a certain amount of specifics regarding booze), by all means, go ahead.
Ah, and I find The Talented Mr. Ripley's first act far more interesting than the rest of the story (either Patricia Highsmith's book, René Clément's film, or Anthony Minghella’s).
I don't think money alone works as the central theme in fiction. Has there ever been a movie where the main story isn't just what happens around money, same as food or air? I think it could work as a clock, perhaps the first line of a book being something like 691.14, which we eventually learn is a bank account slowly dwindling as the book progresses. Perhaps the chapter names are simply the amounts left in the account. It might bug an editor, and be worth it just for that... "I feel the voice in chapter 418.71 isn't consistent with the voice in chapter 12." Says the editor. "Well, yeah," I'd answer, "did you even pay attention to where that 406.71 went?"
Trading Places, The Laundromat, even in greed era movies the money seems like a catalyst. We don't walk away remembering exact amounts of gain or loss, but how people were impacted.
Maybe money as the central theme only belongs in non-fiction, personal journey type books, self help, finance, How I Made My First Million, or ones that mix fiction into reality like Art of the Deal (which admittedly I've only read excerpts from).
I haven't watched the movie, but I just watched the scene on You Tube. It's wonderful. Beautiful poetry. I was super interested in the trailer but shy away from any violence in film these days. I might watch it though, now that I saw that great scene!!
I think there’s always going to be a place for kmart realism (including future iterations of it) and a fascination with money/wealth.
The way money/wealth is handled in ‘Breaking Bad’ is neat. It’s supposedly the whole driving force behind the protagonist, but no — he did it because he liked it; because he was good at it.
And Recent movies like ‘Parasite’ and ‘Saltburn’ show that, not only can narratives centred around money/wealth be excellent, but that there’s an audience for them.
Again it's '80s largesse but Brewster's Millions with Richard Pryor and John Candy. Pryor inherits $30 million from Andy Griffith and must spend it in 30 days in order to get the REAL inheritance of $300 million.
And it doesn't even seem like it's about the money. It's about the challenge and about doing something decent with it ultimately. No spoilers.
The Money Song
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Owuk3cZGtQ
There's only one money song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXE_n2q08Yw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-P2qL3qkzk
I like this game.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYOjWnS4cMY
I'm not done yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GlJ1lFvkK4
And THE BEST OF ALL OF US: Working 9-5. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbxUSsFXYo4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8P80A8vy9I
I don’t think so. There is no emotional attachment to money. Readers want to be able to empathize with protagonists. Money is a hard concept to empathize with or around. Most people tend to stay within a particular sócio-economic range their entire lives, and so unless characters are within that range of the reader, the reader won’t be able to empathize. But emotion. That transcends sócio-economic status.
Can you think of one story based on money -- not tied to an emotional issue -- that works?
Watching 'Panic Room' I wanted to know more about WHY the burglars wanted the money so badly. It seemed tied to a child's health, somehow, but the paper money vanishing at the end didn't seem very emotional. Your thoughts?
The Big Short?
Whats the other 2008 crash film? I watched them both again about a year ago.
They're all about the emotional impact of these abstract money systems shitting the bed. Not the money or the systems themselves. If they focused on the money parts, doing my own accounting would be more exciting.
Randy!
Chuck!
Any plans to return to the Glove Off series?
What about Theodore Dreiser’s “An American Tragedy” aka the movie “A Place in the Sun”? I think money is the compelling issue in this capitalist society.
Agreed, but like 'Ripley' they do a lot of world building to make the rich life seem so appealing.
I suppose I should clarify. When I stated “there is no emotional attachment to money”, I was intending to mean readers can’t establish an emotional connection with a story based on money. They can however, and often do, relate to the emotions of characters when the emotion is fueled by money. But no, I cannot think of a story based on money that is not tied to emotion, that works. Honestly, in thinking about this, when I think about money in stories, I feel like in most cases you can argue there is an emotional attachment to the money by someone. I wonder, can we even come up with just a story that we could all objectively agree that the money has no emotion attached to it.
The Great Train Robbery movie
Wall Street?
Indecent Proposal?
I was going to say, Annie. But that's emotionally callous of me, isn't it?
That Twilight Zone episode where the stranger shows up with the suitcase full of money and says "if you spend this, someone you don't know will die."
Pretty Woman? HOLD ON. WAIT. Maybe EVERY movie is about money?
The money is always a metaphor though, right? It represents what the character wants. And we can all relate to that. To a want.
I agree. I think that speaks to my follow up comment, responded to Chuck’s follow up question. There’s always an emotional attachment to the money, at least a debatable one. I hate to speak in superlatives of always or never. I think your “want” is almost always an emotional attachment to the money. Whether it be greed, contentment, happiness of being able to provide a need for your family, or some other want.
I really like the idea of a character pursuing resource/money if it means their family and friends might be safe in order to drive the story but I also like creative purity. Like in Breaking Bad. Walter broke our hearts and thrilled when he had to pursue meth production in order to get his family financially stable. I also like the relatability of a character who does not know what's going to happen next financially or otherwise. I notice I'm not as invested with characters who are upper middle class or extremely wealthy. What made Walter's character even more powerful was the fact that after a few months it was clear the money was only secondary. He loved himself as the villain and that's what carried him. Harmony Korine talks so much about the idea of creative purity. Also see:"Uncut Gems." I love the quote "This is how I win." You realize Sandler's gambling habit has almost nothing to do with money. Really interesting.
I also just watched "The Zone of Interest" yesterday about Nazi Germany. The SS guard and his family lived adjacent to Auschwitz. Throughout the movie you could hear the furnaces, screaming and crying while the ideal family talked about status, material possessions, and money with horrible callous.
I loved breaking bad for the exact same reasons. I tend to find characters with money struggles to be much relatable than ones that are more well off. I have a hard time sympathizing with any sort of character that doesn’t struggle financially. There may be some exceptions to that but in general I just can’t relate to a life of financial ease.
Yes! And I adored that the writers made sure that the family was imperfect. Not a picture frame family
Yeah I really enjoyed that as well. The fact that you can see a less than perfect family still deteriorate just makes it feel that much more real
Money is stored energy. Intention is interesting. Compulsion is interesting. Thou shalt not covet is interesting. (Have you seen 'Dekalog:The Ten Commandments' by Kieslowski?) Thou shalt not steal is interesting. Behavior is interesting. I like what you are saying about what keeps our interest.
Money as stored energy is interesting. What was your reaction to The Joker burning the heaps of currency?
"I'm only burning my half." Legend.
I thought it was gorgeous how Joker’s soul (typo I meant sole but that works too!) interest was chaos. For some reason it seems almost ego-less. I also really enjoyed the visual of the firetruck on fire. I feel like the joker is the ultimate artist. He’s like who I want to be, but I don’t dare, so it’s fun to watch.
I thought a lot about writing about money because when I was pregnant, we survived with food stamps, WIC, rental assistance, and prayer while we were 1099 independent contractors in sales so it was very much about resources and always thinking about how nice it would be if it was just there and always wondering where “it” was like God or my mother. Now that we’re in a different place financially I almost never think about it except for how I hope to make things better for myself and my family and others. Where to funnel the energy as another person said. I’ve also always been fascinated since I was a little kid about money because of the scarcity in my household, and comparing myself to my wealthy childhood friend whose dad owned half my town and how much her mom hated me and over the years I have made quite an attempt to think about it differently/fearlessly, which has improved my life overall. I have so many thoughts about it thank you for asking. Dammit now I feel all creative. Why’d you do you do that to me???? lol <3
I think such stories can still work since the quest for money (status) is at the heart of the American myth. Take stories of people becoming gangsters to get a slice of the pie. Or stories of horrible people fighting over inheritances (i.e HBO’s succession). or the stories of wanna bees flirting on the edge of financial elicits to capture scraps to build up their own hedge fund empires (ie The Fund - nonfiction about Ray Dalio).
Are you talking about money or power? Doesn't money seem rather static, while power shifts and stays interesting?
fair point. money and power are intertwined. but as you say the ebb and flow of power is what connects readers to story. thanks.
How about a movie like the 80s comedy, Brewster’s millions. Take $1 mil and run off with it, or spend $30 mil in 30 days with nothing to show for it to inherit $300 million. I don’t feel like Richard Pryor’s character was chasing power, rather just chasing the comfort of accumulating generational wealth and comfortability.
Likewise 'Millions' and 'A Simple Plan.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millions_(2004_film)
Oh. I see what you're doing. I am always a minute behind. But I love catching up.
What about Martin Amis's novel Money?
Fill me in. I've not read it. I'd bet it was set in the 80s when money seemed like more of a goal.
The novel’s subtitle is neat as it has a few connotations. ‘Money: A Suicide Note”
Yup, written in 1984. Prime yuppie years of commercials, porn, hedonism, money, drugs. Opportunities and excess give way to ruin and debt. Very 80s. Money as goal regardless of how you get it and what you do with it.
Money don't get everything it's true
But what it don't get I can't use
I want money..
Etc etc
I don’t have a great relationship with money, so it’s usually something I skim over. It can be a factor in hardship or hope, but it’s only a byproduct of behavior. Love, revenge, lust, enlightenment - those are reasons for me to pay attention.
Ocean's Eleven (2001) and The Art of the Steal (2013) both appear to be money-motivated on the surface but turn out to be more about personal motivations (at least for the main characters). I'm going to go with the layered story as the way forward.
Along the same lines, but... backward?... Die Hard (1988) appears to be about emotional (socio-political is emotional, right?) motive but turns out to be purely about money.
Maybe money (exact sums) are gone, but money=class seems to continue in a Tom Ripley way. In film/TV, at least, there's a rash of wealth-obsessed stories (Saltburn, Triangle of Sadness). The goal is either to get the money (i.e., join the upper class) or burn it all down. The line from the article that stood out to me: "A friend once told me the easiest way to know if a college-educated person has rich parents is to ask if they have student loans." My kids are loaded with student loans; my step kids don't owe a cent. Our merged family never talks about that.
Agreed. I love the coded way people inquire about wealth. In old Portland people always asked, "Where did you go to high school?" And the best answers were always Lincoln or Riverdale High. In Paris, my editor said no one will overtly discuss money so they ask, "How much do you pay for your apartment?" Maybe coding and signaling have replaced the overt discuss in books?
I wouldn’t know where to start on a money story besides something political. Smash capitalism. Spread capitalism. I honestly feel like my life flows between the two.
One of the themes in the novel I’m working on is wealth imbalance. It’s not so much a personal struggle for the main character, she grew up poor but due to other privileges, she will find herself shuffled in amongst the billionaire class. And she will also discover she can shift the wealth/power imbalance if she takes very drastic measures that will toss the entire world into chaos. So, frankly, I *hope* there is still a market for it lol.
Full disclosure: I can't say I read much contemporary literature. Barring some noble exceptions (among which, of course, Chuck Palahniuk), many of the authors I read have been dead for a long time now or made their names decades ago.
To be honest, I have never read a book that made me think: "What a shame! If only the author had dared to specify the size of such a character's debt!"
I find the particulars of money terribly boring. And why would I need them? In our Western society, EVERYTHING we do is susceptible to monetization and regularly valued in terms of money. There's no need to specify the particulars. By showing the right details, we can already see the economic situation, privileges, needs, or merits of a character.
Struggling for money is sad and boring enough in our day-to-day reality. Why should we convey this sadness and boredom to our fiction? I agree with Mr. Palahniuk that it's far more interesting focusing on what we want, need, or use that money for.
Having said that, if the story or character requires it (the way a story about barflies will require a certain amount of specifics regarding booze), by all means, go ahead.
Ah, and I find The Talented Mr. Ripley's first act far more interesting than the rest of the story (either Patricia Highsmith's book, René Clément's film, or Anthony Minghella’s).
Adding the character of Meredith was genius. One of the best "guns" in film.
I agree. Minghella's is my preferred version altogether.
I don't think money alone works as the central theme in fiction. Has there ever been a movie where the main story isn't just what happens around money, same as food or air? I think it could work as a clock, perhaps the first line of a book being something like 691.14, which we eventually learn is a bank account slowly dwindling as the book progresses. Perhaps the chapter names are simply the amounts left in the account. It might bug an editor, and be worth it just for that... "I feel the voice in chapter 418.71 isn't consistent with the voice in chapter 12." Says the editor. "Well, yeah," I'd answer, "did you even pay attention to where that 406.71 went?"
Trading Places, The Laundromat, even in greed era movies the money seems like a catalyst. We don't walk away remembering exact amounts of gain or loss, but how people were impacted.
Maybe money as the central theme only belongs in non-fiction, personal journey type books, self help, finance, How I Made My First Million, or ones that mix fiction into reality like Art of the Deal (which admittedly I've only read excerpts from).
I haven't watched the movie, but I just watched the scene on You Tube. It's wonderful. Beautiful poetry. I was super interested in the trailer but shy away from any violence in film these days. I might watch it though, now that I saw that great scene!!
I think there’s always going to be a place for kmart realism (including future iterations of it) and a fascination with money/wealth.
The way money/wealth is handled in ‘Breaking Bad’ is neat. It’s supposedly the whole driving force behind the protagonist, but no — he did it because he liked it; because he was good at it.
And Recent movies like ‘Parasite’ and ‘Saltburn’ show that, not only can narratives centred around money/wealth be excellent, but that there’s an audience for them.
Again it's '80s largesse but Brewster's Millions with Richard Pryor and John Candy. Pryor inherits $30 million from Andy Griffith and must spend it in 30 days in order to get the REAL inheritance of $300 million.
And it doesn't even seem like it's about the money. It's about the challenge and about doing something decent with it ultimately. No spoilers.
Ohhh, you tapped the nostalgia button with this one. A silly little movie that I haven't seen in 30 years, but it was a fun ride from what I recall.
Indeed. That and The Toy were my two favorite Richard Pryor movies. For John Candy, the list is far longer. Loved him.