I might be totally wrong on this Chuck, but in my opinion it is exactly the revealing of the cancer idea early in the story that makes it even more shocking. It feels as if being hit in the head right from the start and then walking throughout all the story dizzy and perplexed breathing fast and in expectation to see how this crazy thing could possibly end 😉
I don’t think that all the stories should apply the same principle of progressively creating suspense. Sometimes an incredible shock at the very start might hook the reader better. But then again, that is just my personal opinion
Interesting thought, Ethan. I've written a single story both ways (immediate reveal, or progressive suspension) and it's hard to tell which one "hit" better - probably because someone who already read the first version can't be surprised anymore by the concept, so the second version doesn't have the same suddenness or shock value. You need to find virgin readers of both, and not let them cross over, to get true, unbiased views. As you noted at the end, though, it's probably just a personal preference. Some readers like to know where they stand right out of the gate, others crave the impending doom that isn't made clear until later.
What you say makes sense and I agree with you. My intention was not to support one approach in place of another but rather to point out that from time to time a variation is like a fresh breath of air.
Whilst I’ve seen this idea of progressively increase tension followed by a big bang at the end elaborated here, I haven’t seen the reversed approach tackled yet (or maybe I missed some post). What happens when you experiment a bit and step outside of the box breaking all the rules, turning the universe upside down?
In my understanding (from the perspective of a simple reader though) the more you try to fit everything in rules and patterns the more reproducible something becomes…
More and more it seems narrative is presorted. On streaming for example, the movies are presented in categories. I only advocate for a slow reveal because it might preclude the reader seeing too much too soon and dismissing the story unfinished. A slower tease might ultimately bring more cautious readers all the way to the end.
If I gave you the elevator pitch for 'Fight Club' -- it's a place where people go to pound on each other -- who'd bother to read it?
What comes through for me in this stereotypically 'machismo' setting, is the sense of longing, of utter desperation. The bigger the men, the more we see what little boys they are, just wanting to be grown up already. Fantastic gut punch as ever.
Sorry Jen, I wasn't trying to be mean by this comment. I was just pointing out how when Chuck accepts a story for Gloves Off, he sorta vanishes for two to three weeks. That was all I meant by this comment.
Great story. To keep the historical precedent thread going, consider reading "Dietary," by Brandon Tietz in the anthology, Burnt Tongues. In it, a former beauty queen contracts a tapeworm so she can be hot and skinny like she was in high school.
Brandon Tietz keeps the pathos, what's at stake, present pretty much the whole way through, and graduates it as the drama of the tapeworm grows over time.
I think I’m one of the few people who still watch American horror story. I’m starting to get all the seasons jumbled together, but if I recall, there was a storyline in a recent season about tapeworm and weight loss.
Thanks for sharing Rabi, I really like the concept and the “said somebody” chorus.
I would have to agree with Chuck, you have great big voice, but staying in it for too long made it hard for me to get into the scene and the story. Consequently, I had a hard time feeling the emotional weight the story might otherwise have. I think digging into a something specific and concrete and detailed will really take this to the nice level. It sounds like Colton has some good reading recs for you too.
Thanks for sharing Rabbi. I’m curious to see how you incorporate the feedback, and it’s always helpful for me to see it in new context.
I agree with Colton and Matt, I see greater potential in your ideas than how they are shaped in this draft, and figuring out how to lure the readers in and make them believe it is key.
Chuck managed to get me almost believing his story about the HPV body modification even though I understand why it’s impossible. All because it was sold so well.
A job very well done, Rabbi! Great concept. I dropped this note on the story itself, but I immediately loved the line "Cancer won’t feel as bad, as thin will feel so good." Incorporating the cultural precedent angle is a fascinating suggestion, though my biggest takeaway from Chuck's feedback was delaying the reveal so the reader feels a mounting sense of dread as they gradually figure it out for themselves. That's something I've struggled with as a writer; sometimes I get so excited about how a story will end that I can't help but yell "LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENINING? ISN'T THAT CRAZY??" all the way to the end. The slow burn is an exercise in patience.
A guilty pleasure of mine? I love adverbs. Throw tomatoes at me all you want to Chuck, but it's true. They might be an unforgivable sin, a paved road to hell. And you tend to call them out in Gloves Off submissions ruthlessly. Most times you make a good case for their deletion. But if I read a sentence like, "We kissed viciously," I can't help but to adore it and see how things play out. Especially when the adverb contradicts the verb to create dissonance. Sometimes an adverb can make a sentence delectable. Just wanted to let you know that's one of the few writing rules I'm lax about. End of my confession lol
Agreed, there's no tool completely off limits. If you wanted to tell a truly gruesome tale, but seduce readers by using a bedtime story style, the comfort of adverbs would be a good tool.
I might be totally wrong on this Chuck, but in my opinion it is exactly the revealing of the cancer idea early in the story that makes it even more shocking. It feels as if being hit in the head right from the start and then walking throughout all the story dizzy and perplexed breathing fast and in expectation to see how this crazy thing could possibly end 😉
I don’t think that all the stories should apply the same principle of progressively creating suspense. Sometimes an incredible shock at the very start might hook the reader better. But then again, that is just my personal opinion
Interesting thought, Ethan. I've written a single story both ways (immediate reveal, or progressive suspension) and it's hard to tell which one "hit" better - probably because someone who already read the first version can't be surprised anymore by the concept, so the second version doesn't have the same suddenness or shock value. You need to find virgin readers of both, and not let them cross over, to get true, unbiased views. As you noted at the end, though, it's probably just a personal preference. Some readers like to know where they stand right out of the gate, others crave the impending doom that isn't made clear until later.
What you say makes sense and I agree with you. My intention was not to support one approach in place of another but rather to point out that from time to time a variation is like a fresh breath of air.
Whilst I’ve seen this idea of progressively increase tension followed by a big bang at the end elaborated here, I haven’t seen the reversed approach tackled yet (or maybe I missed some post). What happens when you experiment a bit and step outside of the box breaking all the rules, turning the universe upside down?
In my understanding (from the perspective of a simple reader though) the more you try to fit everything in rules and patterns the more reproducible something becomes…
More and more it seems narrative is presorted. On streaming for example, the movies are presented in categories. I only advocate for a slow reveal because it might preclude the reader seeing too much too soon and dismissing the story unfinished. A slower tease might ultimately bring more cautious readers all the way to the end.
If I gave you the elevator pitch for 'Fight Club' -- it's a place where people go to pound on each other -- who'd bother to read it?
What comes through for me in this stereotypically 'machismo' setting, is the sense of longing, of utter desperation. The bigger the men, the more we see what little boys they are, just wanting to be grown up already. Fantastic gut punch as ever.
Hi Chuck! I hope it’s my turn lol. Here is Chapter 1 of a novel I’ve been working on.
https://open.substack.com/pub/jenvin/p/chapter-01?r=2rmzq3&utm_medium=ios
Okay, you're up!
Everyone, if you have a question for Chuck, say it now while he's here. After today, he'll be hibernating with this story lol
Sorry Jen, I wasn't trying to be mean by this comment. I was just pointing out how when Chuck accepts a story for Gloves Off, he sorta vanishes for two to three weeks. That was all I meant by this comment.
Name in the hat
https://open.substack.com/pub/garbageterminal/p/grows?r=16rujl&utm_medium=ios
For consideration. Just a stand-alone short story as I try to implement the lessons learned here.
https://peakyprogger.substack.com/p/resolutions
Looking forward to reading this on my flight. In the meantime here’s another short story submission for your consideration.
https://open.substack.com/pub/mattandersen/p/forevermore?r=1epxph&utm_medium=ios
Hey Rabi!
Great story. To keep the historical precedent thread going, consider reading "Dietary," by Brandon Tietz in the anthology, Burnt Tongues. In it, a former beauty queen contracts a tapeworm so she can be hot and skinny like she was in high school.
Brandon Tietz keeps the pathos, what's at stake, present pretty much the whole way through, and graduates it as the drama of the tapeworm grows over time.
I think I’m one of the few people who still watch American horror story. I’m starting to get all the seasons jumbled together, but if I recall, there was a storyline in a recent season about tapeworm and weight loss.
I learn so much from reading these. Thank you
Thanks for sharing Rabi, I really like the concept and the “said somebody” chorus.
I would have to agree with Chuck, you have great big voice, but staying in it for too long made it hard for me to get into the scene and the story. Consequently, I had a hard time feeling the emotional weight the story might otherwise have. I think digging into a something specific and concrete and detailed will really take this to the nice level. It sounds like Colton has some good reading recs for you too.
Thanks again!
It's always a privilege to be reviewed here Chuck. Thanks a bunch.
Rabbi-Iblis, yeah, right on, man!!! Looking forward to reading this this weekend. Take care, all!
How are you doing Chuck? Just letting you know I check in on your Substack practically everyday to see if you've posted. Always nice to hear from you!
Thanks. It's nice to be checked in on. You get a new dog yet?
Thanks for sharing Rabbi. I’m curious to see how you incorporate the feedback, and it’s always helpful for me to see it in new context.
I agree with Colton and Matt, I see greater potential in your ideas than how they are shaped in this draft, and figuring out how to lure the readers in and make them believe it is key.
Chuck managed to get me almost believing his story about the HPV body modification even though I understand why it’s impossible. All because it was sold so well.
A job very well done, Rabbi! Great concept. I dropped this note on the story itself, but I immediately loved the line "Cancer won’t feel as bad, as thin will feel so good." Incorporating the cultural precedent angle is a fascinating suggestion, though my biggest takeaway from Chuck's feedback was delaying the reveal so the reader feels a mounting sense of dread as they gradually figure it out for themselves. That's something I've struggled with as a writer; sometimes I get so excited about how a story will end that I can't help but yell "LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENINING? ISN'T THAT CRAZY??" all the way to the end. The slow burn is an exercise in patience.
A guilty pleasure of mine? I love adverbs. Throw tomatoes at me all you want to Chuck, but it's true. They might be an unforgivable sin, a paved road to hell. And you tend to call them out in Gloves Off submissions ruthlessly. Most times you make a good case for their deletion. But if I read a sentence like, "We kissed viciously," I can't help but to adore it and see how things play out. Especially when the adverb contradicts the verb to create dissonance. Sometimes an adverb can make a sentence delectable. Just wanted to let you know that's one of the few writing rules I'm lax about. End of my confession lol
Agreed, there's no tool completely off limits. If you wanted to tell a truly gruesome tale, but seduce readers by using a bedtime story style, the comfort of adverbs would be a good tool.
I have become more aware of how I use adverbs since taking the writing class with you and Chelsea earlier this year.
Happy 4th of July!