All I could think of - until the pig sex appeared - was how, if she was rocking back and forth on the bed and he has an ostomy bag, he's just watching his shit gently slosh back and forth. I'm not sure if this is something to consider tweaking or a fun bonus feature.
I think I’ve personally steered away from more transgressive stories because, in my experience, they take much more skill to pull off well.
However, the more I’ve learned, the more comfortable I’ve gotten with digging into those topics to see if I can bring something bigger to bear (or to boar.)
Hey Matt, quick question. What is an example of something transgressive that you’ve thought of? I can assume that getting bottomed out by a pig or horse (beastiality) is transgressive… I only ask because I’m having trouble pinpointing exactly what it means to make a story transgressive.
I have to imagine it’s different for everyone. In my case it’s usually something I’m uncomfortable writing about because I’ve never experienced it and don’t want to do a disservice to those who have. But maybe that’s something different entirely.
If pressed, I’d probably have give the old “you know it when you see it” definition.
I read this before you did the gloves off and remember feeling sickened- but that’s a good thing! It was written well enough I wanted to know more too. Good story! I myself have been trying to work on not summarizing. It’s hard as fuck, but a good exercise.
I’ve done sickening with a purpose. Just wasn’t when I was practicing minimalism. It drags on a lot but I think I should try to rewrite some and see how it goes.
Aside question: Chuck, have you ever experienced writer’s block or do you not believe in it? That thing about writing through it even if it’s bad, doesn’t seem to be working with me. I just hate the garbage I wrote and want to stop.
Already on it doctor Chuck. My ratty copies of The Road and Damned are off the shelf for rereading. I have a long awaited hike in July, Mt. Katahdin. Maybe something will come to me.
Atticus, how goes it. Don’t mean to butt in, but I just wanted to say your writing is anything but garbage. Though I understand, because I think all my stuff is trash as well.
I guess what I’m saying is please don’t stop. I pegged you for the strongest writer in the group, honestly. Sans Chucky poo, of course. But I’m serious. You’re very tap
Thank you. What I’m experiencing is a little more like motivation problem. There’s work being done it’s just a slog. The stuff I put on my substack was written a while back. I’m trying presently to finish that novel. Other ideas occur to me and I put them in a note file on my phone. I have like a few hundred of them. Just to flesh them out is the problem.
Relatable, for sure. My notes app is choked to the brim, notebooks are stacking up, yet I find myself staring at a blank wall, wondering how to turn this shitshow into something cohesive. Definitely disheartening.
I don’t know if writers block is actually a thing, but I do know that an abundance of half ideas is almost worse, because it cripples you into a state of inaction, unsure of which avenue to pursue. Likewise, there’s work being done but it’s blah. All my stuff on Substack is at least a year old too. Such is the way, my friend. Page by page.
“what does that demonstrate about how we all tailor our histories to attract a lover… yet we yearn for a lover who will accept us warts and all. In effect, we first exaggerate our virtues. Then exaggerate our vices. Always in a quest for true love.”
Chuck, this is beautiful. You should be a writer. Got a lot of promise, for sure.
Absolutely. I love the insight. Your ability to take what’s already there and see so much more potential is not only super helpful as examples for us, your students, but a testament to all the kick ass work you’ve produced throughout the years. I’m always searching for a way to elevate what I already have, but often times when I run with the new concepts I’ve envisioned, I just start questioning every move I’ve made up until that point, or write myself into a corner.
They say practice makes perfect, but I say perfect can eat a bag of dicks.
That said, I hope Vince toys with what you’ve said and comes back with a banger. There’s so many ways one could go with that…
It’s a great story, my friend. And like Chuck said, it could be brilliant. He really went deep with the insight, more than I’ve ever seen actually. That’s awesome!
Chuck I’m fascinated by how well you highlighted how the emotional intensity and the need to be loved, or believed, is such an important component to making the story a better version of itself.
Lots to think about again.
Like Matt said, I’m often uncomfortable with writing anything too shocking. You’re point about the need to create the purpose in the story is a powerful one, and what makes the difference between crassness and art.
I appreciate the time you took to review Oink and provide input. Your comment about the first paragraph “A little dialogue can go a long way”. Noted. After re-reading the story and digesting your input, I see how slowly unpacking the fake car accident/colon cancer storyline will slow the linear plunge.
Regarding the tenses, I thought by perhaps using present tense in the backstory/flashbacks might create a sense of immediacy and make those scenes more vivid.
The ending: So, we know that Kathy’s fiancée knows she can’t bear children. Good old-fashioned guilt is why she revealed the truth to him. When the fiancée learned the truth (that she willingly had sex with an animal) he of course revealed his own secret to Kathy about being fucked by a donkey. Remember, when Kathy revealed her truth, her fiancée “found the pig sex a little kinky, which made Kathy giggle.”
A match made in hog heaven? I’ll let you all decide.
I look forward to re-working Oink and going beyond shock to reveal a larger lesson.
Please share the revision if you will. I already the dig what you’ve got, but also would like to see a revised version from one of us. I realized today that I’ve never seen someone take the suggestions/feedback and share the rewrite for comparison. Anyway, thanks for sharing, my guy. Good shit
If something looks off-putting, let's always look for the deeper motivation. What is the behavior expressing? Is this an instance of the prodigal son acting out before being redeemed?
https://open.substack.com/pub/cameronpetrie/p/burnt-cd?r=8t7xk&utm_medium=ios
Dibs next!
Haven't you already gone?
Nope. First time posting a story to Gloves Off.
“If Harlequin Romances do a line of pig romances, you’ve got a job.”
PlayBoar was a thing back in the 90’s.
That line Chuck wrote about Harlequin Romances made me snort.
I giggled for sure. Classic
All I could think of - until the pig sex appeared - was how, if she was rocking back and forth on the bed and he has an ostomy bag, he's just watching his shit gently slosh back and forth. I'm not sure if this is something to consider tweaking or a fun bonus feature.
Whatever the case, it needs to land in the middle of the story. Don't overload the opening.
Thanks, Chuck.
I think I’ve personally steered away from more transgressive stories because, in my experience, they take much more skill to pull off well.
However, the more I’ve learned, the more comfortable I’ve gotten with digging into those topics to see if I can bring something bigger to bear (or to boar.)
If you can turn their stomach, make them laugh, AND break their heart...
If Kathy was intentionally telling a horrible lie, that shows such a huge need for love.
Warts and all would be a great tag
Hey Matt, quick question. What is an example of something transgressive that you’ve thought of? I can assume that getting bottomed out by a pig or horse (beastiality) is transgressive… I only ask because I’m having trouble pinpointing exactly what it means to make a story transgressive.
I have to imagine it’s different for everyone. In my case it’s usually something I’m uncomfortable writing about because I’ve never experienced it and don’t want to do a disservice to those who have. But maybe that’s something different entirely.
If pressed, I’d probably have give the old “you know it when you see it” definition.
Makes sense. Almost like it’s subjective. Right on. Thanks for responding, my friend.
I read this before you did the gloves off and remember feeling sickened- but that’s a good thing! It was written well enough I wanted to know more too. Good story! I myself have been trying to work on not summarizing. It’s hard as fuck, but a good exercise.
And if the sickening served a larger purpose, it would be brilliant.
I’ve done sickening with a purpose. Just wasn’t when I was practicing minimalism. It drags on a lot but I think I should try to rewrite some and see how it goes.
Aside question: Chuck, have you ever experienced writer’s block or do you not believe in it? That thing about writing through it even if it’s bad, doesn’t seem to be working with me. I just hate the garbage I wrote and want to stop.
Maybe reread someone whose work inspired you? Maybe do hard manual labor and allow a random idea to occur?
Already on it doctor Chuck. My ratty copies of The Road and Damned are off the shelf for rereading. I have a long awaited hike in July, Mt. Katahdin. Maybe something will come to me.
Atticus, how goes it. Don’t mean to butt in, but I just wanted to say your writing is anything but garbage. Though I understand, because I think all my stuff is trash as well.
I guess what I’m saying is please don’t stop. I pegged you for the strongest writer in the group, honestly. Sans Chucky poo, of course. But I’m serious. You’re very tap
*talented
Thank you. What I’m experiencing is a little more like motivation problem. There’s work being done it’s just a slog. The stuff I put on my substack was written a while back. I’m trying presently to finish that novel. Other ideas occur to me and I put them in a note file on my phone. I have like a few hundred of them. Just to flesh them out is the problem.
Relatable, for sure. My notes app is choked to the brim, notebooks are stacking up, yet I find myself staring at a blank wall, wondering how to turn this shitshow into something cohesive. Definitely disheartening.
I don’t know if writers block is actually a thing, but I do know that an abundance of half ideas is almost worse, because it cripples you into a state of inaction, unsure of which avenue to pursue. Likewise, there’s work being done but it’s blah. All my stuff on Substack is at least a year old too. Such is the way, my friend. Page by page.
Thanks for reading it beforehand.
I'm going to start printing this on a business card and handing it out at readings.
"Do you see how a transgressive story must be about something larger? How otherwise it’s just a dirty joke?"
You guys who chime in early... You're the guests who arrive early to the party and ask, "How can we help set up?" I love you guys!
I’m the one who shows up three hours late, hammered, and then demands we change the music.
But I still show up.
Because, I love you guys.
And there’s food.
That was a pig-fucking-good time. We need more stories like this! More kindred spirits. Good job, Vince!
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it.
This story is super fucked up Vince…
And I loved it!!!! Haha. I also happened to be reading it while I had pork chops for dinner. So thanks for that. Seriously, great job.
Don't forget the apple sauce.
Did not know I was in for a night of casual pig sex. Thanks Vince & Chuck!
In Chuck’s Substack, all bets are off.✊🔥
“what does that demonstrate about how we all tailor our histories to attract a lover… yet we yearn for a lover who will accept us warts and all. In effect, we first exaggerate our virtues. Then exaggerate our vices. Always in a quest for true love.”
Chuck, this is beautiful. You should be a writer. Got a lot of promise, for sure.
You see how it can rise to become brilliant?
Absolutely. I love the insight. Your ability to take what’s already there and see so much more potential is not only super helpful as examples for us, your students, but a testament to all the kick ass work you’ve produced throughout the years. I’m always searching for a way to elevate what I already have, but often times when I run with the new concepts I’ve envisioned, I just start questioning every move I’ve made up until that point, or write myself into a corner.
They say practice makes perfect, but I say perfect can eat a bag of dicks.
That said, I hope Vince toys with what you’ve said and comes back with a banger. There’s so many ways one could go with that…
I will revise the story for sure
It’s a great story, my friend. And like Chuck said, it could be brilliant. He really went deep with the insight, more than I’ve ever seen actually. That’s awesome!
Thanks for sharing Vince.
Chuck I’m fascinated by how well you highlighted how the emotional intensity and the need to be loved, or believed, is such an important component to making the story a better version of itself.
Lots to think about again.
Like Matt said, I’m often uncomfortable with writing anything too shocking. You’re point about the need to create the purpose in the story is a powerful one, and what makes the difference between crassness and art.
Well said.
Chuck,
I appreciate the time you took to review Oink and provide input. Your comment about the first paragraph “A little dialogue can go a long way”. Noted. After re-reading the story and digesting your input, I see how slowly unpacking the fake car accident/colon cancer storyline will slow the linear plunge.
Regarding the tenses, I thought by perhaps using present tense in the backstory/flashbacks might create a sense of immediacy and make those scenes more vivid.
The ending: So, we know that Kathy’s fiancée knows she can’t bear children. Good old-fashioned guilt is why she revealed the truth to him. When the fiancée learned the truth (that she willingly had sex with an animal) he of course revealed his own secret to Kathy about being fucked by a donkey. Remember, when Kathy revealed her truth, her fiancée “found the pig sex a little kinky, which made Kathy giggle.”
A match made in hog heaven? I’ll let you all decide.
I look forward to re-working Oink and going beyond shock to reveal a larger lesson.
Thank you, Vince
Please share the revision if you will. I already the dig what you’ve got, but also would like to see a revised version from one of us. I realized today that I’ve never seen someone take the suggestions/feedback and share the rewrite for comparison. Anyway, thanks for sharing, my guy. Good shit
“No one can forgive us because no one really cares what we do.” - ouch, Chuck. This is such a gut-punching and resonant theme.
I loved that line too. One of those ugly truths that’s somehow comforting as well.
As a younger person I pushed back against the Alexander Pope quote for years. Now it's hitting home.
You’ll stop worrying what others think about you when you realize how seldom they do.
-David Foster Wallace
Also, thanks for the name drop. Just found a new author to binge.
If something looks off-putting, let's always look for the deeper motivation. What is the behavior expressing? Is this an instance of the prodigal son acting out before being redeemed?
Or an extremely misguided coping mechanism?
"If you're going to do pig sex, do pig sex."
I want this embroidered on a cushion.
Follow up: I need to now find someone who embroiders cushions.
If you do find someone, please commission one for me.