A hat tip to my teachers. You're getting the best advice I've gotten from Tom Spanbauer, Peter Christopher, Karen Karbo, Amy Hempel, and many more writers.
Chuck -- I have a dialogue question. It seems like I’ve gotten fairly good at having dialogue between two characters who know each other well. I’m able to avoid ping pong conversation and give attribution to actions. But right now I’m writing a scene with two characters who have just met each other and I’m trying to figure out how to make it less bland and boring.
The scene is fine as it moves on past the introductions. It’s just that the first part of when two people meet is hard to give substance to. The main character is helping a woman change a tire in a bad part of town. She eats fast food on the roof of her car as he changes the tire out and things pick up well from there as they warm up to each other.
But the first part where he’s saying he’s happy to help her, his name, reassuring her that he’s not a threat (which he isn’t), etc. It just seems so... generic and predictable. Any ideas to consider? Maybe have him hand her his wallet or something? Would that be a strong physical gesture I could use that isn’t so boring?? As opposed to “Hi my name is blah blah blah...” ... “What’s your name?” -- heh ok it isn’t *that* bad but I’m simplifying to demonstrate.
Matt, great question. Hoping Chuck will respond. I can't offer as much expertise as he would but I'd like to help out.
What I love about two people meeting, especially if it's a man and woman, is the possibility of there being sexual tension. If you'd like, you can ramp that up a bit. It's fun to hide intent and let them be sneaky. And use your surroundings. You have tires, probably a tire iron, and her food. I'm not asking you to have him take the tire iron and slide it through her warm McChicken. You can be more subtle.
You are right to question those pleasantries in dialogue. Hi how are you, I'm fine thanks, gee what a shitty neighborhood I hope I don't get shot, haha so silly this McDonald's is great.
But you get the idea. It's best to avoid pleasantries because most of the time they don't really add much to the conversation.
As far as dialogue, consider thinking about your character's agendas and using dialogue to further them. Ask yourself what does each character want out of this situation. Then have them each try to guide things there.
Whenever writing dialogue, I try to add some tension in as many lines as I can, even if it's just a little. And not just between enemies but also between family or friends.
Thanks! These are good suggestions. I’ll consider using some of that for sure. It could fit well as it ends up that she’s a prostitute. They get into what her life is like in that line of work and why he’s homeless. They’re both people who are in really crappy situations and the conversation plays off of that once it gets going. The introductory portion is just so tough. It’s a good idea to consider cutting the tension of an introduction with a joke. Maybe I’ll have him suggest ‘these junky needles’ are getting as bad as the potholes or something like that.
Matt -- Consider that you DO want tension. People test each other upon meeting, so he might mansplain about the best way to change a tire (loosen the lug nuts before you jack up the car). While she could counter with her own field of expertise. You can phrase dialog to suggest a lie:
"My friends call me Blaine," he said.
She patted her lips with a napkin. "Is Blaine your name?"
He spun the lug wrench. "What do your friends call you?"
She looked off toward Beech Avenue. "So we're friends now?"
He held the lug wrench for her to see. "This is what you call the 'female' end." He fitted it over another lug nut. "You stick it on."
She looked at her phone.
My point is, don't think of the scene as delivering information. The reader knows their names, etc.. Don't repeat anything the reader already knows, but always show people at cross purposes. Escalate. Create menace or veiled hostility. Effects like joy and comedy occur then you quickly release tension, so you've got to build up tension first.
Wonderful. Ugh I hadn’t even thought about the fact that the tension is what you want to have there. Thanks. I’m surprised I hadn’t figured out why that wasn’t working. That’s very apparent now. I’ve had no problem writing tension in other parts of the story. I wonder why I’ve had so much trouble writing it there. It didn’t come naturally like it does in most other places. Very strange.
Much of 'Fight Club' was based on Jung's idea of 'the shadow' basically that we never see others, we see our own projection of self or 'shadow' that falls over them. Thus, the narrator resents Marla because he so clearly sees his own deception in her. We're not disliking people, we're disliking aspects of ourselves that we dislike.
Love that comment, Chuck. Some time ago, I bought The Laws of Human Nature by Robert Greene and one chapter was about the shadow. He said it was like this huge bag that we drag behind us. And we fill it with all the thoughts and words that are inappropriate and offend others. We all want to appear nice and kind, but there's always that other part of us that isn't.
Now that I think about it...I wonder about your shadow. What do you dislike in others that you secretly dislike in yourself?
Yeah someone very cool once told me that thing about disliking people for selfish reasons when I was very young......it was a good thing......I kinda used to rage on myself for fun.......I consider that one of the wisest prices of advice I ever got .....
Also, consider that writers are naturally conflict-adverse. That's why we present in a controlled manner, from a great distance. By learning to write we're slowly learning how to create, control and tolerate tension and conflict. None of this comes to us naturally.
I’ve been thinking it over some more and I think the reason I’ve struggled with this scene is because it’s a moment where the male character “has to” win over her trust in order for the scene to happen and that’s what has made it difficult. At least, that’s the way I’d framed it in my mind -- like he has to present himself in this boring, “I’m here to help” way. I was taking an approach that he has to be a nice guy in the situation or the scene won’t work because she wouldn’t trust him and therefore wouldn’t accept his help. But given that she’s in a desperate situation, maybe I’ll paint a picture as though he could care less whether she wants his help or not. He makes the offer, her loss if she doesn’t accept. Best of luck, etc. etc. Thanks! The conversations here really help me to work through problems like this.
I stayed at the Grand Hotel at Bridgeport. Ran into the rookie roster of the Portland Trailblazers in 2012, staying there too. I didn't know it at the time 'cause I never followed pro basketball, just college. We played blackjack half the night. Although tall, I thought they were pulling my leg when they told me they were Trailblazers. Goddamn, they were lucky to meet this clueless Hoosier.
Got it saved in my calendar even if I'm 5000 miles away. I really, really wish I was there.
Chuck, if you don't mind, I'd like to drop a few suggestions I've heard David Sedaris mentioning about public reading. Maybe not them all apply, but I think they're interesting.
- Always be better dressed than your audience
- Never let them see your stack of pages – they’re gonna say, "Oh God am I gonna listen to all that."
- Never say something like “The first of twelve poems”
- Never stop for any reason
- Shaking everyone’s hand at the front door (okay maybe skip this one)
- Write thank you letter to bookstores or whoever hosted your reading
- Don’t slow down when you’re approaching the ending
Sedaris mentioned these in one of his Masterclass I followed a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful to whoever will jump on stage.
Best of luck everyone. Drop your name in that hat, hop on stage and perform like a Palahniuk. There's a little bit of Chuck in all of you.
Can I ask you something about dialogue? You encourage writers to avoid tennis match dialogue because that back and forth kills tension and doesn't allow it to accumulate. The crazy part about that is SO many writers write like that. But when I read some of your writing, it's not a line-by-line conversation. And honestly, it sounds more like a real person telling a story that way. There's usually some action or body language and then the line. Are most readers accustomed to reading tennis match dialogue? If so, how do readers react when they come across your way of writing dialogue? Have you noticed a stronger reaction?
First, there's no best way to create dialog. I just push what works for me, because too often dialog is clearly one author pretending to be two people. The illusion is to make each character seem autonomous, each following their own agenda.
If they speak at cross purposes it creates tension. If they finish each other's sentences it demonstrates like-mindedness. And keep in mind that gesture and physical business is likely more important than what's being said.
Lol
Damn. Wish I could make that. I hope you continue to do stuff like this! It’s very cool. I’m hoping to make it out to something at some point.
Can someone who is going to be there in person please, please, pleeeeease do an Instagram live or something?
*apologies to Chuck for using a set of three “please”s*
Hah! It's always a great feeling when Chuck's wisdom and lessons just integrate so seamlessly into your work, you just remember them. It's like magic.
A hat tip to my teachers. You're getting the best advice I've gotten from Tom Spanbauer, Peter Christopher, Karen Karbo, Amy Hempel, and many more writers.
Shout-out to their brilliance! Is there a writer from the 1800's who you would of loved picking their brain?
Henry James? Poe? Nikolai Gogol.
I got you
You, sir are a saint. If you’re not already I will sponsor your sainthood in the religion or Elk’s Lodge of your choice.
Can I have your Instagram if you’re going to livestream it too? 😊
I’d like in on this!
Great idea. I’d totally tune in for that. Eh I mean, my dog’s Instagram would ... if she grants me permission.
Sweet! I can't wait (2 pages going into the hat)
Way to go, Joe!
One of these days, maybe I can make it to Portland….
I'll put my name in the hat. I have an old Lie Factory piece that got a new ending.
Fingers crossed that it's the Amber Alert story.
It is, with a new ending. Fingers crossed this one works. ❤
I’ll be there 🙋🏼♂️
I would love to attend to be a supportive audience member if there's room.
My name in the hat, as well--3 page story.
I'll attend in spirit from India!
India?!?!?
My wife's family is from India 😁 we're on vacation!
Chuck -- I have a dialogue question. It seems like I’ve gotten fairly good at having dialogue between two characters who know each other well. I’m able to avoid ping pong conversation and give attribution to actions. But right now I’m writing a scene with two characters who have just met each other and I’m trying to figure out how to make it less bland and boring.
The scene is fine as it moves on past the introductions. It’s just that the first part of when two people meet is hard to give substance to. The main character is helping a woman change a tire in a bad part of town. She eats fast food on the roof of her car as he changes the tire out and things pick up well from there as they warm up to each other.
But the first part where he’s saying he’s happy to help her, his name, reassuring her that he’s not a threat (which he isn’t), etc. It just seems so... generic and predictable. Any ideas to consider? Maybe have him hand her his wallet or something? Would that be a strong physical gesture I could use that isn’t so boring?? As opposed to “Hi my name is blah blah blah...” ... “What’s your name?” -- heh ok it isn’t *that* bad but I’m simplifying to demonstrate.
Matt, great question. Hoping Chuck will respond. I can't offer as much expertise as he would but I'd like to help out.
What I love about two people meeting, especially if it's a man and woman, is the possibility of there being sexual tension. If you'd like, you can ramp that up a bit. It's fun to hide intent and let them be sneaky. And use your surroundings. You have tires, probably a tire iron, and her food. I'm not asking you to have him take the tire iron and slide it through her warm McChicken. You can be more subtle.
You are right to question those pleasantries in dialogue. Hi how are you, I'm fine thanks, gee what a shitty neighborhood I hope I don't get shot, haha so silly this McDonald's is great.
But you get the idea. It's best to avoid pleasantries because most of the time they don't really add much to the conversation.
As far as dialogue, consider thinking about your character's agendas and using dialogue to further them. Ask yourself what does each character want out of this situation. Then have them each try to guide things there.
Whenever writing dialogue, I try to add some tension in as many lines as I can, even if it's just a little. And not just between enemies but also between family or friends.
Hope you can get something from that.
Thanks! These are good suggestions. I’ll consider using some of that for sure. It could fit well as it ends up that she’s a prostitute. They get into what her life is like in that line of work and why he’s homeless. They’re both people who are in really crappy situations and the conversation plays off of that once it gets going. The introductory portion is just so tough. It’s a good idea to consider cutting the tension of an introduction with a joke. Maybe I’ll have him suggest ‘these junky needles’ are getting as bad as the potholes or something like that.
Matt -- Consider that you DO want tension. People test each other upon meeting, so he might mansplain about the best way to change a tire (loosen the lug nuts before you jack up the car). While she could counter with her own field of expertise. You can phrase dialog to suggest a lie:
"My friends call me Blaine," he said.
She patted her lips with a napkin. "Is Blaine your name?"
He spun the lug wrench. "What do your friends call you?"
She looked off toward Beech Avenue. "So we're friends now?"
He held the lug wrench for her to see. "This is what you call the 'female' end." He fitted it over another lug nut. "You stick it on."
She looked at her phone.
My point is, don't think of the scene as delivering information. The reader knows their names, etc.. Don't repeat anything the reader already knows, but always show people at cross purposes. Escalate. Create menace or veiled hostility. Effects like joy and comedy occur then you quickly release tension, so you've got to build up tension first.
Wonderful. Ugh I hadn’t even thought about the fact that the tension is what you want to have there. Thanks. I’m surprised I hadn’t figured out why that wasn’t working. That’s very apparent now. I’ve had no problem writing tension in other parts of the story. I wonder why I’ve had so much trouble writing it there. It didn’t come naturally like it does in most other places. Very strange.
Much of 'Fight Club' was based on Jung's idea of 'the shadow' basically that we never see others, we see our own projection of self or 'shadow' that falls over them. Thus, the narrator resents Marla because he so clearly sees his own deception in her. We're not disliking people, we're disliking aspects of ourselves that we dislike.
Love that comment, Chuck. Some time ago, I bought The Laws of Human Nature by Robert Greene and one chapter was about the shadow. He said it was like this huge bag that we drag behind us. And we fill it with all the thoughts and words that are inappropriate and offend others. We all want to appear nice and kind, but there's always that other part of us that isn't.
Now that I think about it...I wonder about your shadow. What do you dislike in others that you secretly dislike in yourself?
Hah, never gonna answer that in writing.
How about a cassette tape confession that ignites after the first play? LOL
“We're not disliking people, we're disliking aspects of ourselves that we dislike”
Genius.
Yeah someone very cool once told me that thing about disliking people for selfish reasons when I was very young......it was a good thing......I kinda used to rage on myself for fun.......I consider that one of the wisest prices of advice I ever got .....
Jung has so great concepts.
That shadow one turns pretty obvious when you have a kid, nothing triggers me more than my daughter acting like i did as a kid (i notice afterward)
Also, consider that writers are naturally conflict-adverse. That's why we present in a controlled manner, from a great distance. By learning to write we're slowly learning how to create, control and tolerate tension and conflict. None of this comes to us naturally.
I’ve been thinking it over some more and I think the reason I’ve struggled with this scene is because it’s a moment where the male character “has to” win over her trust in order for the scene to happen and that’s what has made it difficult. At least, that’s the way I’d framed it in my mind -- like he has to present himself in this boring, “I’m here to help” way. I was taking an approach that he has to be a nice guy in the situation or the scene won’t work because she wouldn’t trust him and therefore wouldn’t accept his help. But given that she’s in a desperate situation, maybe I’ll paint a picture as though he could care less whether she wants his help or not. He makes the offer, her loss if she doesn’t accept. Best of luck, etc. etc. Thanks! The conversations here really help me to work through problems like this.
I stayed at the Grand Hotel at Bridgeport. Ran into the rookie roster of the Portland Trailblazers in 2012, staying there too. I didn't know it at the time 'cause I never followed pro basketball, just college. We played blackjack half the night. Although tall, I thought they were pulling my leg when they told me they were Trailblazers. Goddamn, they were lucky to meet this clueless Hoosier.
I’ll be there with work to read for sure. Can’t wait!
Also will have 2 pages
Got it saved in my calendar even if I'm 5000 miles away. I really, really wish I was there.
Chuck, if you don't mind, I'd like to drop a few suggestions I've heard David Sedaris mentioning about public reading. Maybe not them all apply, but I think they're interesting.
- Always be better dressed than your audience
- Never let them see your stack of pages – they’re gonna say, "Oh God am I gonna listen to all that."
- Never say something like “The first of twelve poems”
- Never stop for any reason
- Shaking everyone’s hand at the front door (okay maybe skip this one)
- Write thank you letter to bookstores or whoever hosted your reading
- Don’t slow down when you’re approaching the ending
Sedaris mentioned these in one of his Masterclass I followed a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful to whoever will jump on stage.
Best of luck everyone. Drop your name in that hat, hop on stage and perform like a Palahniuk. There's a little bit of Chuck in all of you.
Break a leg.
Sounds fun 😊
Can I ask you something about dialogue? You encourage writers to avoid tennis match dialogue because that back and forth kills tension and doesn't allow it to accumulate. The crazy part about that is SO many writers write like that. But when I read some of your writing, it's not a line-by-line conversation. And honestly, it sounds more like a real person telling a story that way. There's usually some action or body language and then the line. Are most readers accustomed to reading tennis match dialogue? If so, how do readers react when they come across your way of writing dialogue? Have you noticed a stronger reaction?
First, there's no best way to create dialog. I just push what works for me, because too often dialog is clearly one author pretending to be two people. The illusion is to make each character seem autonomous, each following their own agenda.
If they speak at cross purposes it creates tension. If they finish each other's sentences it demonstrates like-mindedness. And keep in mind that gesture and physical business is likely more important than what's being said.